V-Twin Forum banner

1 - 18 of 18 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
7 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
All - I have searched and could not find an answer that fits my question. Looking at a 2014 FLHX with a 120R motor in it that is not running right. I have a SEPST and cannot find a good base tune for the 120R that works. I can find a base tune for the 120ST, but not the R. Using the 120ST base tune (bumped up to 130 ci) the system had horrible exhaust backfiring and loss of power under a load at low RPM's. I actually had to set it to auto tune and run it in N at various RPM ranges then create new maps with that in order to get it to clean up enough to move it down the road. After several runs with the auto tune it loses power at WOT in any gear at any RPM range. If I am cruising down the road (as long as I am not attempting to accelerate at WOT) it will run ok - though it seems to have less power than my 2014 STG 4 FHLTK. However, if I slow down to make a turn onto another street it begins to backfire through the exhaust and has no power (to the point I had to roll over to the shoulder at one point). Is there a 120R base map that works with the 2014 and newer TC bikes? Does anyone have any experience with a similar issue?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
7 Posts
Discussion Starter #4 (Edited)
Rigid - It is the Screaming Eagle Pro Super Tuner.

TT - I plan on pulling the plugs to get a read on how they are burning, I had the rocker boxes off and a top side check of the valves looked good (I am going to do a leak down test to verify). Seemed to really become an issue after the installation of BCT baffles (at least based upon what my buddy who owns the bike says).
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
7 Posts
Discussion Starter #5
I manually adjusted the AFR and made the engine fat. The horrible power poss and back firing on acceleration and the seeming to fall on its face at WOT is gone. Now I need slowly lean it out and go from there.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
7 Posts
Discussion Starter #7
Find a good dyno operator that can tune.
Thanks, but it kinda defeats the purpose of not only a technical forum (telling a guy who asks a question to just take it to a shop??) but it also takes away the point of a system that can be tuned, played with and learned on.
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
19,401 Posts
BMFC, people will give you advice, you can follow it or not. In the future if you don't like a suggestion, just move on to the next one.

And you're probably not going to like this either.

You made a really poor choice when selecting that tuner. And basically you are going to need to eat it and move on to something more suitable. You can't properly tune a race grade motor with an EPA compliant tuner. The settings you need are locked out. The reason there is no map for the R motor is that its not intended to be operated on that tuner. You keep trying and you'll have a 120 to write off too.

If you want to have it tuned, find a shop you can work with and buy the tuner they suggest. Stay as far away from the dealer as you can.

If you're a hands on kind of guy, then look at autotuners. Several flavors of them out there. Thundermax and Daytona-TwinTec being the two race based Alpha-N systems.
 

·
not sober all the time
Joined
·
5,123 Posts
I agree with autoworker and Therm. Unless you have the equipment to view spark retard, A/F ratio, etc. you may indeed fry the engine before getting it to run right. A dyno is helpful as you can measure the gains or losses from each adjustment. But if you want to keep playing with your friends engine, good luck.
 

·
Make me use my bullet?
Joined
·
12,657 Posts
I feel like there is a piece of this story missing.

Is your buddy really paying you to "play around with and learn on" his bike?

It defeats the purpose of having a capable tuning module only to keep it out of the hands of a competent operator.

If you have the time to play with it and have it at a point where it is running then you should be able to get it better by using the 'autotune', if you're doing it correctly and not trying to tune in neutral.

I could see adding baffles changing the AFR but not the timing so the question is "how did it really come to be in this state?". Was it running fine before the baffles were changed? Was it previously tuned with that SEPST or are you trying to add that now?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
7 Posts
Discussion Starter #11
BMFC, people will give you advice, you can follow it or not. In the future if you don't like a suggestion, just move on to the next one.

You made a really poor choice when selecting that tuner. And basically you are going to need to eat it and move on to something more suitable. You can't properly tune a race grade motor with an EPA compliant tuner. The settings you need are locked out. The reason there is no map for the R motor is that its not intended to be operated on that tuner. You keep trying and you'll have a 120 to write off too.
I would argue that telling someone to take a bike to a shop is not something that would typically constitute "technical" advice. I guess it could be said that if you don't have something to contribute to the thread move on to the next one just as easy as saying that if you don't like the suggestion move on to the next one. I wasn't calling anyone out with my statement simply pointing out this is a technical forum not angies list.

As far as the tuner goes, I have seen opinions vary on who likes what tuner and why. I do think you are confused about the tuner I have though as It has all the functionality you say it needs. It is not the Street Tuner.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
7 Posts
Discussion Starter #12
I feel like there is a piece of this story missing.

Is your buddy really paying you to "play around with and learn on" his bike?

If you have the time to play with it and have it at a point where it is running then you should be able to get it better by using the 'autotune', if you're doing it correctly and not trying to tune in neutral.
No one is paying me to "Play around and learn on" their bike. I have a friend who is not very mechanically inclined. I am, and I have some experience with motors and motorcycles. The "play around and learn" was general comment regarding the reason why most people (yourself I am assuming) are on a technical forum. To learn things they didn't know, from people who know things and are willing to share. If the people on here wanted to go and pay a shop to work on their stuff there wouldn't be much need for these forums now would there?

The update I did on this thread last night was just that, an update. One of the things I hate about technical forums in general is when there is no confirmed resolution. Makes them less helpful for people who have similar problems. So I was updating the thread with what I had done and what the results were. Yes, at this time it is in a state where I can begin to use the auto tune function. As far as tuning in N - it was not so much doing a real tune as it was giving the system a baseline for the local parameters. Once that was done adjustments could be made using the auto tune during normal operation to begin dialing in the tune.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
9,250 Posts
My bike is simple with just a carb and DTT ignition.

I still found being able to modify settings and jets, then immediately see the results on the dyno to be a learning experience - and the dyno-observable results were superior to my earlier seat of pants results. Even with an auto tuner, given the computer-controlled interplay of multiple sensors and what they do - a skilled tuner with the appropriate tools and working with a dyno will produce results beyond what can be done without the skill or tools, IMO&E.

No one's implying you lack skill or lightly blowing off your issue.
 

·
Make me use my bullet?
Joined
·
12,657 Posts
No one is paying me to "Play around and learn on" their bike. I have a friend who is not very mechanically inclined. I am, and I have some experience with motors and motorcycles. The "play around and learn" was general comment regarding the reason why most people (yourself I am assuming) are on a technical forum. To learn things they didn't know, from people who know things and are willing to share. If the people on here wanted to go and pay a shop to work on their stuff there wouldn't be much need for these forums now would there?

The update I did on this thread last night was just that, an update. One of the things I hate about technical forums in general is when there is no confirmed resolution. Makes them less helpful for people who have similar problems. So I was updating the thread with what I had done and what the results were. Yes, at this time it is in a state where I can begin to use the auto tune function. As far as tuning in N - it was not so much doing a real tune as it was giving the system a baseline for the local parameters. Once that was done adjustments could be made using the auto tune during normal operation to begin dialing in the tune.
These forums are not meant to take away from the validity and usefulness of professional mechanics and technicians. In fact, who do you think are the folks here giving the best advice?

I agree, updating a thread during / after resolving a problem should be done more often. We get a lot of one and done folks here. They are usually recognized by low post counts, like yourself.

More background is always more helpful in troubleshooting.

Most folks do not have their own dynamometer which happens to be a very valuable tool for tuning in the hands of the right person. There are plenty of things that you can discuss on these forums and get help with and/or learn how to do yourself. Tuning is generally not one that is recommended as a DIY sort of thing, just like when someone wants to do a "monster build", the best advice is to find someone reputable to put a package together instead of mish-mashing a bunch of random parts hoping that they all work together.

You still didn't answer my questions about the events leading up to this situation. Just like you are looking for a base map to start with, a baseline on the bike would be helpful for other folks to offer help.

If you're stance is that you just want to find a base map and don't want any of the technical advice that is the purpose of these forums then I think the question has probably already been answered. Either way, let us know how it turns out.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
8,355 Posts
I think there are several people who have given excellent advice... I have not offered any tuning advice,,, as,, if you aren't expert level,,, with extensive efi tuning experience,,, on motors such as this including you doing the dyno tuning,,, you are just banging your head on the wall to see if it hurts (120R is now toast, kind of pain)
Sorry for being direct and rude,,, but that is, how it is...

If you had this experience you would already know all that has been offered that you do not seem to agree with...
Get a different tuner,,, afterermarket,,, the SE tuner is useless with this engine,,

Therm's assessment of the tuner you have, is spot on..... all tuners,,, sold by the Harley dealer,,, to retail customers, as well as bikes in shop for dyno tuning,,, are limited to epa approved settings,,, per an agreement between the moco, and the epa... a 120R,,, or any large performance motor,, not intended to be legally installed on a street bike (but frequently are),, cannot be tuned with a tuner manufactured or purchased after a date in 2015 iirc,,, are epa approved... and will cause irreparable damage to a motor such as you have...
Is what I believe therm was trying to impress upon you.... your tuner, cannot tune that engine,,, as it needs timing and fuel settings that are locked out.. period..
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
168 Posts
Tall Terry, he said he had the Pro Super Tuner, not the street tuner, so he HAS the ability to change the timing and fuel curves beyond the EPA regulated levels, so he is OK with that tuner. I bought a Pro Super Tuner after Harley and the EPA came to terms, I just had to import it as you cannot buy them in the US anymore. Harley's software still supports them because of the number of units sold before the EPA agreement and because Harley's are sold around the world and beyond the reach of the EPA agreement.
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
19,401 Posts
OK so its an orange interface pack, more than two years old?

Even if it is, I'm hearing that the MoCo pulled a lot of the maps from the library to appease the EPA.

So in this case you need to find an old map for the R motor. Look for old software builds, or ask around and see if you can find someone who will email you a map for an R motor. Or you can build a new map. And maps are built on the Dyno. Trying to build one by the seat of your pants is asking to kill a motor.
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
2,572 Posts
Instructions on how to "Smart Tune" are included in the software with the SEPST.I would advise #BMFC to brush up on it since he seems determined to adjust the fuel and possibly timing settings.Hard to beat a good tune done by a professional on a dyno.
Good luck with your "tuning".
 
1 - 18 of 18 Posts
Top