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Here we go again. My customer's '07 Harley-Davidson FXDB 96" Twin-Cam with only 4805 miles has .005" pinion shaft run-out! How many of these motors are out there Harley? Get this people, they've recently released a Service Bulletin that increases pinion shaft run-out of which the service manual says should be .002" with a service wear limit at .003" to what I don't know as yet as I'm waiting for a fax on that from my dealer connection in Texas. What’s the big deal with a couple of thousands of an inch? When you consider the beast it's a lot! Due to this wobble, my customer's oil pump gerotor feed gears have been digging into the inboard side of the cam support plate. Both the oil pump and cam support plate need replacement now. Wait a minute, I just got the fax.

Harley Tech Tip #TT324:
Flywheel specifications:
Run-Out (crankshaft in crankcase) is 0-.010"
Run-Out (crankshaft on a truing stand) is 0-.004"

Flywheel Service Wear Limits:
Run-Out (crankshaft in crankcase) is .012"
Run-Out (crankshaft on a truing stand) is 0-.005"

You've got to be kidding me Harley. The only reason they are doing this is to limit their liability. I can't believe this! The motor company has sunk to a new low. Warning people, don't buy poorly manufactured Harley's; better yet, build or buy a bike with either an S&S or TP engine. Harley's Twin-Cam is truly substandard. If you own a Twin-Cam, you would be wise to check the condition of the oil pump, cam support plate, and on '06 & earlier units the cam chain follower pads which can wear-out as soon as 10k.

See the video at:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8_ABdzSrge0

:beatdh:
 

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I do agree with you for sure. If you saw the ariticle in HOT BIKe and american iron (i think) you would clearly see why these bikes are having some problems lately. They always talk about QC and that stuff, but then they brag about motors come off the line at i think was a motor in under a minute. All the cranks are done by robots. I am sure they are accurate, but IMHO doesnt beat a true craftsman on the line...
 

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got a customer now with .015 runout. 07 heritage.

call me a dummy, but hd says .010 in cases, .004 in true stand----------does that tell us the engine case machining sucks too?
 

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Discussion Starter #4
Re:

What I don't understand is how Harley makes the distinction between checking the flywheel shafts on truing stand centers and checking the shafts as installed in the cases. I checked the pinion shaft with the cam support plate removed as I'm sure most technicians do. I haven't checked the sprocket shaft yet but I will update when I have. Have you checked the sprocket side yet? If so, what did you get? I wonder if the lower-end bearings are so loose to allow excessive run-out? I hope not. Service manual spec. for sprocket shaft bearings is .0002"-.0015" and as for pinion shaft bearings there is no printed spec. but it should be close to what the other bearings are on the other side of the flywheels. Interestingly enough TT324 states, "Specifications will be higher when measured in the crankcases than in a truing stand due to bearing run-out, stack-ups, and shaft length/distance from the bearing races." However, the fact remands that anything over a couple of thousands on the end of the pinion shaft and you will see uneven wear on the oil pump feed gears and it's mating surface on the backside of the cam support plate and the pinion shaft bushing in the cam support plate too. You would undoubtedly also see an increase in vibration and what's going to happen to the low-end bearings? Not only this, but if you want to run the preferred gear driven cam you will have to purchase a set of smaller gears to compensate for Harley's loose specifications. I still wonder how they are going to treat my customer. I'll keep you posted. Think twice people!
:beatdh:
 

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I have an 07 FXST with 10,000 miles on it and just found out the cam suport plate and cams are worn out. I've been complaining about vibration in this bike since day one. I had to take it to and indy to find out it's running .007 to .009 on the pinion and now the steeler is saying that they won't warrenty it. Going to find out for sure this saturday. QC means quick cash for harley.
 

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d1hojo said:
I have an 07 FXST with 10,000 miles on it and just found out the cam suport plate and cams are worn out. I've been complaining about vibration in this bike since day one. I had to take it to and indy to find out it's running .007 to .009 on the pinion and now the steeler is saying that they won't warrenty it. Going to find out for sure this saturday. QC means quick cash for harley.
That doesn't sound good.
I have a friend with an 07 Street glide.. 5000 mi. Has a vibration around 2700 to 3000 rpm.. Any speed , any gear..
Does that sound familiar ??
 

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Well, I took it to the dealer today and got the same old crap. We don't hear or feel anything wrong. BULLS%%T! I told him I know something is wrong because I had to take it to an indy to get it checked out and found out what was wrong. I had to authorize them to take it apart to check it out. If they don't fid anything out of HD specks then I have to pay for the work and gaskets. Well I know it's not right so I said go ahead. Won't know anything till around tuesday but will keep you informed.
 

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Re:

I hope you really trust this dealer to be honest with you. Are they going to simply tell you that your motorcycle is within their new specifications? What proof do you have? If I were you, I would insist that they show the pinion shaft run-out with a dial indicator in place. If you are not satisfied, you might want to take it to a reputable shop a dealer or otherwise and have them show you in person or with pictures and or video of the inspection. That’s what I've done with my customer’s bike as I'm still not sure what H-D is going to do for my customer. I probably won't hear anything till Monday what H-D will do in our case. If worse comes to worse I advised my customer to he may have to retain an attorney.

One school of thought about the recent sloppy ways of H-D concerning the Twin-Cam is that they may be banking on the fact that a large percentage of their customers may not ride the bike that much letting the warranty expire with low miles so they can "eat" the claims that do show-up.

Why are Twin-Cams having these lower-end problems as of late? It may be due to a few things such as:
• 2003 & later models have the same caged roller bearing as is used on the pinion (right) side as it is on the sprocket shaft (left) side of the engine. The preferred method to help better support the flywheels is to use a 2002 & earlier Timken bearing set-up. Companies such as S.T.D. can modify late crankcases to allow this. My customer's '07 FXDB has .002" of up and down play by grabbing the pinion shaft and moving up and down. What’s up with that? This in addition to .005” of pinion shaft run-out.
• These caged roller bearings have an outer race that works with the inner race on the pinion shaft and sprocket shaft. The service manual states clearance is .0002"-.0015"., but how do you measure that? There is no procedure for inspection mentioned in the service manual. Assumedly, you would measure the sprocket and pinion shaft inner races to determine correct clearance specs. However, if you look for a spec. for this you won't find it. Why is this?
• Noting the previously mentioned points. The bushing in the cam support plate has a tough job of supporting the pinion shaft and working with the oil pump. If there is a problem with the flywheels being out of true, excessive sprocket and/or pinion shaft clearances, or heaven forbid all the above then this bushing will rapidly wear. In addition, the oil pump will suffer as well as the cam support plate.

What do you do? Hopefully you’ll be able to afford this, but the best way to deal with this is to modify the sprocket shaft bearing to the earlier Timken style. Again, companies like S.T.D. (www.stddevelopment.com) can modify your cases. Then also update the gearcase (cams, oil pump, and cam support plate) using the complete S&S gearcase set-up (www.sscycle.com/catalog17/pdf/TwinCam.pdf) that includes new gear driven cams, gear driven oil pump housing, cam support plate, and reed valve breather. This in not cheap, you’ll spend about $2200.00 in parts alone. All this won’t do you any good if the flywheels are out of true. If they are true this is the best system going bar none. The only thing better than this would be to take that motor out and sell it on ebay. Then put an S&S motor in, but now you are talking more money.

I would appreciate comments on your thoughts regarding this posting.

:beatdh:
 

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PHDS said:
I
Noting the previously mentioned points. The bushing in the cam support plate has a tough job of supporting the pinion shaft and working with the oil pump. If there is a problem with the flywheels being out of true, excessive sprocket and/or pinion shaft clearances, or heaven forbid all the above then this bushing will rapidly wear. In addition, the oil pump will suffer as well as the cam support plate.


:beatdh:
Maybe the key reason for abandoning the camplate bushing altogether in 2007...........

Reminds me of school tests, just lower the passing grade and mor kids can get through and more parents are happy. Oh well, hope that S&S or other supply an A engine that fits to the new transmission anytime soon. Something like a 4 1/8 * 4 stroke 107" that works with stock EFI would be a seller.
 

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IronButt
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Replace the stock cam plate with the R&R billet setup and gear drive and be done with it. The new HD oil pump is a soild unit, and will work well with most any build out there. We are a firm believer in the new R&R billet plate. It has been tested with cranks that where known bad cranks with over .038 runout, used as a test subject, and the plate was able to hold the crank stable and the oil pump was in great shape after being rechecked, after the bike had been run and milage put on the new set up
 

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Problems

PHDS said:
I hope you really trust this dealer to be honest with you. Are they going to simply tell you that your motorcycle is within their new specifications? What proof do you have? If I were you, I would insist that they show the pinion shaft run-out with a dial indicator in place. If you are not satisfied, you might want to take it to a reputable shop a dealer or otherwise and have them show you in person or with pictures and or video of the inspection. That’s what I've done with my customer’s bike as I'm still not sure what H-D is going to do for my customer. I probably won't hear anything till Monday what H-D will do in our case. If worse comes to worse I advised my customer to he may have to retain an attorney.

One school of thought about the recent sloppy ways of H-D concerning the Twin-Cam is that they may be banking on the fact that a large percentage of their customers may not ride the bike that much letting the warranty expire with low miles so they can "eat" the claims that do show-up.

Why are Twin-Cams having these lower-end problems as of late? It may be due to a few things such as:
• 2003 & later models have the same caged roller bearing as is used on the pinion (right) side as it is on the sprocket shaft (left) side of the engine. The preferred method to help better support the flywheels is to use a 2002 & earlier Timken bearing set-up. Companies such as S.T.D. can modify late crankcases to allow this. My customer's '07 FXDB has .002" of up and down play by grabbing the pinion shaft and moving up and down. What’s up with that? This in addition to .005” of pinion shaft run-out.
• These caged roller bearings have an outer race that works with the inner race on the pinion shaft and sprocket shaft. The service manual states clearance is .0002"-.0015"., but how do you measure that? There is no procedure for inspection mentioned in the service manual. Assumedly, you would measure the sprocket and pinion shaft inner races to determine correct clearance specs. However, if you look for a spec. for this you won't find it. Why is this?
• Noting the previously mentioned points. The bushing in the cam support plate has a tough job of supporting the pinion shaft and working with the oil pump. If there is a problem with the flywheels being out of true, excessive sprocket and/or pinion shaft clearances, or heaven forbid all the above then this bushing will rapidly wear. In addition, the oil pump will suffer as well as the cam support plate.

What do you do? Hopefully you’ll be able to afford this, but the best way to deal with this is to modify the sprocket shaft bearing to the earlier Timken style. Again, companies like S.T.D. (www.stddevelopment.com) can modify your cases. Then also update the gearcase (cams, oil pump, and cam support plate) using the complete S&S gearcase set-up (www.sscycle.com/catalog17/pdf/TwinCam.pdf) that includes new gear driven cams, gear driven oil pump housing, cam support plate, and reed valve breather. This in not cheap, you’ll spend about $2200.00 in parts alone. All this won’t do you any good if the flywheels are out of true. If they are true this is the best system going bar none. The only thing better than this would be to take that motor out and sell it on ebay. Then put an S&S motor in, but now you are talking more money.

I would appreciate comments on your thoughts regarding this posting.

:beatdh:
We feel that the true root of the issue is the inability for the crank to stay true. The wheels shift on the crank pin and there it goes. S&S does not have that problem with their cranks. Evo's didn't either, nor did Shovel's or Pan's.
Not enough of an interference fit on the press togather T/C wheel assemblies.
We have knowledge from other outfits, that Kawasaki had a similar issue once. They took care of it.
BTW, we manufacture our own bearing inserts here, from 6061 Alcoa bar, bore the cases, and convert to the tapered Timken set.
 

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Discussion Starter #13
Re:

Thank you very much for your suggestion. I think we are going to go with the #12-2014b cam support plate and cover. It's better than waiting for S&S to release their edition for the late Dyna. To my knowlege, R&R is the only manufacturer of anything like this for the 2006 and later Dyna's. Bye the way, how did that test ride feel with that motor that had .038" of run-out? That is amazing!

:beatdh:
 

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HDWRENCH said:
Replace the stock cam plate with the R&R billet setup and gear drive and be done with it. The new HD oil pump is a soild unit, and will work well with most any build out there. We are a firm believer in the new R&R billet plate. It has been tested with cranks that where known bad cranks with over .038 runout, used as a test subject, and the plate was able to hold the crank stable and the oil pump was in great shape after being rechecked, after the bike had been run and milage put on the new set up
Would't you still get a lot of vibration with it that far out? This has turned out to be a big friggin mess for me. I already spent a lot of money on the 37hg cams and not sure if I could get my money back or not. I sure as hell can't afford a lawyer. I will know more tomarrow.
 

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.038 Thousandths Runout!!!!!!!!!!!

I just can't get my mind to see how in the world that would be cureable shy of re-truing. Maybe I'm all wet. If it is "stabilizing" the pinion, then it is making it flex somewhere else, setting the stage for breakage. It would have to be an encentric(?) bearing, dedicated only for the exact runout for a that crank only, and then what about the pump? I give up.
 

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But the question is why?other than cost for the MoCo was the specs increased.Many owners have complained of vibration at any speeds and oil puking out of A/C only to have oil pump found scorn or ruined.This is with specs exceeding original factory specs.Replacing the pump is their fix and letting them go for maybe another 9000 miles hoping warranty runs out.If a beefier cam plate cures this movement,why doesnt Hd redesign theirs instead of replacing engines?Sounds like the IDS thing,the customer will pay for the fix!
 

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Discussion Starter #17
Re:

HDWRENCH Replace the stock cam plate with the R&R billet setup and gear drive and be done with it. The new HD oil pump is a soild unit, and will work well with most any build out there. We are a firm believer in the new R&R billet plate. It has been tested with cranks that where known bad cranks with over .038 runout, used as a test subject, and the plate was able to hold the crank stable and the oil pump was in great shape after being rechecked, after the bike had been run and milage put on the new set up
I think what HDWRENCH was trying to get across is that the R&R cam support plate can be a great part of a build especially when you've got pinion runout that is within specs. I'm sure a test ride with .038" of pinion runout would have quite a bit of vibration. The point is that it held together and didn't kill the oil pump.

My customer and I thought it best to go ahead and rebuild his new Harley of 4805 miles the right way and in the process bump displacement to 106". My Harley dealer connection will swap part for part so my customer will have a brand new set of flywheels, oil pump, and support plate that he can sell. We didn't want to use the Harley flywheels as at this point we do not trust them. As previously stated we're going to try one of these R&R cam support plates. I do also like the S&S set-up but it isn't available yet for the late Dynas. The beefy R&R cam support plate along with a new S&S 4 1/2" x 3 7/8" flywheel/piston, Timken conversion to left case half via S.T.D., H-D 3 7/8" cylinders, Branch O'Keefe #4 bathtub heads, H-D chrome ball milled rocker boxes, S&S 585G cams, Feuling tappets, H-D quick install pushrods, warranty oil pump, S&S reed valve breather, along with a previously installed set of Vance & Hines Big Radius pipes and SERT. I will try and post a dyno run at some point for this engine. Speaking of posting, I've included a link to youtube that shows a video of the runout on these stock flywheels.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8_ABdzSrge0

We're going to beat that horse into submission!
:beatdh:
 

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Discussion Starter #18
pittguy said:
But the question is why?other than cost for the MoCo was the specs increased.Many owners have complained of vibration at any speeds and oil puking out of A/C only to have oil pump found scorn or ruined.This is with specs exceeding original factory specs.Replacing the pump is their fix and letting them go for maybe another 9000 miles hoping warranty runs out.If a beefier cam plate cures this movement,why doesnt Hd redesign theirs instead of replacing engines?Sounds like the IDS thing,the customer will pay for the fix!
H-D calls it "cost effectiveness". I call it poor engineering!
 

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Discussion Starter #20
Re:

Bubba Neil said:
Was it running bad with excessive vibration or was it just going to be an upgrade when all of this was discovered.
Actually this bike ran-out okay, it didn't buzz too bad. However, others I read or heard about with more run-out would no doubt equal more vibration. Also make sure your motor mounts are correctly torqued. It was to be an engine upgrade when I found the damage to the oil pump outer feed gears, mating face to oil pump, and the cam support plate's bushing from the pinion shaft's wobble. The amount of run-out on this customer's bike seems minor as compared to some out there. Even still, this is too much.
 
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