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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Took my 02 Ultra with EFI to the dealer because it was running rough like it is missing when running at low rpm's 2000 to 2600 and not under load. Found out that there are about 3 other bikes in town doing the same thing. Dealer contacted Harley and were told that this is a problem around the country. They are sending a whole complete new injection module to try. Don't know if this is a redesign or what but will let you know.
 

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Should be interesting if they truthfully tell you what exactly has changed in the module. The fellow working on the bike might be able to tell before they ship the old parts back to Harley. That's the only way we'll ever find out.

Wouldn't be surprised if it is related to the separation between throttle body and manifold, as this is a huge potential liability problem for them.
 

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Question for HIPPO

HIPPO;

Keeping in mind that I am not mechanically inclined, any chance this module redesign has anything to do with my FLHTCI stumble that we have discussed?

Bike now has 600 miles on it and problem has not abated; took my wife for her first ride last night. The bike acted up, of course, and she feels that it really is a safety problem and will not ride again unless H-D can resolve the problem.

Here's hoping someone can come up with a fix...

Richard H-D
 

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Personally I doubt it, sounds like two completely different operating parameters and symphtoms. But you never know, they could be connected in some strange way.

What we have been talking all along is the sort of thing that disappears, probably in no small part because one gets used to riding the bike that way. The fact you keep mentioning it might mean that the bike maybe does have some sort of minor glitch, but the check engine light in these things is so sensitive that it tends to show problems when none exist as opposed to the other way around.

Might want to have them check fuel pressure, if it is even closer to the lower limit of the spec then they usually are, it will run even leaner then they usually do, and then you would have problems of that nature.
Thing is there is only so much they can do within a warranty system if the thing is within factory specs, if you get tired of them find a good EFI guy and have him take care of the problem. There is a enormous amount of wiggle room within some factory specs.

In a way I can understand guys that take the position that they paid for the bike and expect it to be made right by the dealer.
I just hate to waste my time with them and rather spend a few bucks and make the problem go away. Life is too short to worry.

Maybe BHB can find something out.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
According to the mechanic who is fairly sharp with the EFI said that it is not a redesigned module but just a replacement, said it was easier to replace the whole module then replacing sensors and such, they will send it back to harley to test. Also talking about the stumble that a lot of people are experiencing is very high on the list of complaints on the 02's. Mine does not have the stumble maybe because I am running the stage 2 BB with the reflash which maybe richened up the bottom side enough. Real curious to see how the new tuning module will work out.
 

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According to the mechanic who is fairly sharp with the EFI said that it is not a redesigned module but just a replacement, said it was easier to replace the whole module then replacing sensors and such, they will send it back to harley to test
You are smart enough to realize that's a crock o' $hit. The sensors on the intake module are bolt on, take less then 5 minutes to replace, and in the case of the Delphi do not require any sort of adjustment.

The Delphi intake module is a two piece affair, the throttle body and the intake manifold. Are they replacing both as a unit or just one or the other?

If there were a problem with the throttle body, then it would make sense to replace it.

Sounds like they have not yet put their finger on whatever they are looking for and just want the complete module to see if they can come up with a discrepancy.

This does in no way reflect on the wrench as in these cases he has to do as he is told.

Yes, the stage reflashes often cure the stumble, problem is you can't reflash a stock bike as it would go too much the other way.
On the Delphi softails they have updated production reflashes, but they have been out much longer.
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Hippo, injection module is not in yet but I just came back from a weekend run of about 800 miles, bike runs flawlessy at about 2500 rpm's and up in 4th to 5th gear (cruising and pulling on interstate) when I get in the lower gears with NO load on the engine is when it really starts bucking and jumping around like a miss. Was wondering if you think this could be caused by to lean of a conditon in the lower range. have stage 2 BB, 203 cams with the flash only, no PC ( waiting for you report on the Harley tuning module) could this also maybe a fuel pressure problem. I was in 111 degree heat and had big ping knock taking off from stop signs with good gas. I know I'am grabbing at straws right now but I still think it is just a tuning problem that I am experiencing. I think I need to make a trip to Arizona, we have nobody around here. (EFI) carb i can do. Sorry about long post.
 

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Symphtoms would seem to point in that direction. Fuel pressure is easy to check, spec is 55 to 62 but most of them come in around 57 or 58, anything below that you will have a problem. (the ocasional far in between 60 to 62 bike runs like a raped ape even stock)
Low and midrange is where they usually run lean, unless they are heavily modified.

The Delphi bikes have the capability to compensate for minor vacuum leaks, but this implies that they also have the capability to hide them. There have been quite a few bad intake seals on these bikes.

One way to get an indication might be to find an auto repair shop with an infrared exhaust analyzer. A short five minute reading at idle and say a steady 2000 rpm of both CO and HC will give you a half way decent indication if the bike is lean. Best you can do without a dyno.

There is little doubt in my mind that the HD EFI tuner will be a much more desirable option then the PC, as nothing stays on the bike and the changes are made directly on the ECM's EEPROM, eliminating all the piggybacking onto the sensor inputs.

Just don't know if it will be a better option then the DFO. I would guess that it would depend on the person dealing with it, the tuner being better for someone that understands tuning and is computer literate at least at an intermediate level (capable of building their own fuel and ignition maps) and the DFO for the do it yourselfer due to it's almost eerie simplicity.

Word has it that the tuner has a built in accelerometer and very basic data logging capability in order to be able to download estimated power curves on a PC, but you know the value of word on the street.

Just have to wait and see when the thing gets here.

When I found out that the 03 Glide is no longer available with a carb, the tought crossed my mind to make a kit to retrofit EFI bikes with a HQ (Daytona TwinTec) ignition and a carb. It could be made incredibly simple with a little engineering as all the sensors are already on the bike.
People are bound to get fed up with dealers inability to take care of issues and the cost involved once the bikes are out of warranty.
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Update, Harley has come up with another fix for my problem, instead of changing out the whole injection module they have removed the tps and replaced it with one from the older Marelli system which is adjustable. The bike is running smoother than it ever has except now it has a very slight stumble off of idle which I can live with as I will learn to compensate for it with a little more throttle when engaging clutch. Will keep in contact with service manager for any other updates as they come from Harley. So far this is the best fix yet.
 

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Did they say what mV value they set it at with the throttle closed?

i suppose it is one way to richen up the bottom a little.
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 · (Edited)
I think they were talking like somewhere around 4.5 didn't get the actual setting when I picked it up. One thing I forgot to check on is if they checked fuel pressure, am curious what it is running compared to your recommendations.
 

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Maybe 450mV?

The MM is usually set at 275 mV (.275V) absolute zero throttle opening when you lose reference and cold idle at 610 to 680 depending on the version. Since the idle control is completely different on the Delphi the set value would be comparable to the zero value and quite a bit richer.

Sometimes conversationally they will give the numbers, they become secretive when you ask outright. LOL.

Would be good info to have.



ps. beginning to wonder what the ETS voltage reads fully warmed up.
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
Hippo, is there a lot of difference between the Delphi tps and the older Marelli tps, I know that the MM is adjustable where the Delphi is a fixed signal. I want to make sure that Harley is not screwing up my EFI with running this older tps on it. As you said they are pretty hush hush about what the specifics are.
 

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Hey People:

This may be my second post. I'm not sure if the first one made it through. I have been following your posts concerning the 02 Ultra running rough. I have an 02 FLTRI EFI Road Glide with the identical problem of it missing at low RPMs when not under load. It also idles rough and pops out the exhaust when just twisting the throttle a little while in neutral, like when waiting at a red light. I have been to the dealership a number of times with various mechanics riding the bike as well as the service manager. They do not even acknowledge that there is a problem. I even spoke to the owner of the dealership. He made me an appointment to bring the bike in another time, but the mechanics put me off, saying they were busy, and that if no codes were coming up, nothing is wrong. I know that there is. The bike ran great the first 300 miles, the problem just appeared. At first i just thought it was bad gas, but the bike now has almost 4000 mile on it. I've read everything you guys have written. BHBandit wrote that they swapped in the earlier EFI unit, which he says has cured the problem, but caused a stumble. I definitely do not want that. You and HIPPO wrote about some aftermarket units that are available. I'm very mechanical, but know nothing about the electronics on my machine. Can you guys fill me in on any new developments with your problem and tell me about these aftermarket units you wrote about. Any info would be appreciated.

Lou
 

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BHB, not really, a TPS is a TPS, all they are is a rotary variable resistor and the only thing of any significance is the signal voltage put out by them. By using the adjustable one (it can be turned on the throttle shaft as it has mounting slots as opposed to mounting holes) they can increase output voltage at a given throttle position. Sort of like in an old car with a distributor, you turn it a little and advance or retard the timing at all points along the curve without changing the curve.

In this case they just richened the fuel straight across a little. No different then upping fuel pressure for example. Maybe I should sell them some regulators. LOL.


As far as the Glide, there are a number of ways to alter the fuel map. From a pressure regulator to a Power Commander and from a DFO to the new HD race tuner. Not to speak of the flashes. They all have pro's and con's when used indiscriminately. Ideally you would run the bike on a sniffer dyno and see what the fuel curve looks like. You will either find you have a problem or you will need to look somewhere else. As sensitive as the self diagnostic is on these bikes, if there is no check engine lite the odds are overwhelming it is on the fuel side.

We have mentioned over and over that the Delphi bikes have the ability to mask minor vacuum leaks, like from intake gaskets. This has to be ruled out first.
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
The TPS changeover helped a little with the low rpm miss but it actually moved it up the rpm scale and has also created the off idle stumble, had it over to the dealership here with the Sturgis rally going on so there are a shitload of factory reps here with everyone of them picking there noses trying to figure out the EFI problems people are rolling in with, seems to be mostly Glides and Kings with the above problems and increased with the stage 2 kits installed. I told one of the reps that I thought they were a little premature with there release of EFI when they can't properly diagnose and repair these type of problems and was told that they have to experiment in the real world (they wanted me to leave my bike there all week for them to mess with) I told him that was crap and that they wouldn't be experimenting with me anymore, I traded the bike for another carbed bike. Like Hippo has stated many times you are hooked to the dealer with the EFI and the costs are to high for any gains. I will get my new bike in about 3 weeks and will be looking forward to a carbed model again and also less weight as I have a really messed up back and the Ultra was to heavy but a dream to cruise on.
 

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Good to hear that in a way you solved your problem.

When I saw the post and before I read it I was going to tell you that yesterday I picked up the SE EFI tuner I ordered to study it. It has some very interesting features when you get into the advanced modes. It also gives you some insight into the ECM logic that appears to be somewhat different from what was previously known. There are several hundred pages of software to study, but at first glance it would appear that with the data mode you can to a large extent duplicate the digital technician at home. It seems to give you the capability to build a data base of engine parameters in different configurations and retrieve and clear codes.
In a way it is like putting the digital technician in the hands of the people. I'm relatively certain I can use it in a way largely different then originally intended and do with it what dealers should be doing if they had the interest and someone capable to fully utilize the features as far as creating engine parameter databases.
Just wish I had the volume of bikes they have as it would make it much faster.
As far as these symphtoms, once we showed the dyno guy at one of the local dealers who is a pretty smart kid how to set the DFO's up, he has also been pretty successful at correcting many of the drivability problems.
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
I'am sure it is not to far down the line where we will be able to fix these EFI problems which I believe are basic tuning problems but I don't like the additional costs when I have a bike under warranty. I believe in simplicity which is cost effective and has proven it self time and time again for reliability and performance. EFI is the future but not for me right now, they have not proved themselves to me. I like to make a few simple adjustments and ride, not have my bike at a dealer all the time. My new bike will not see the dealer again after delivery. Good to hear you got the SE tuner and will be looking forward to some reports after you get a chance to study and experiment with it for awhile. Thanks for all your help.
 

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Can't say I blame you. I had ordered a 03 Glide with a carb and then found out they don't make them anymore.

I'm trying to make time to work on my projects, funny thing is lately we have been getting quite a few pan and shovel rebuilds (dealers don't work on them either, sort of makes you wonder what they actually work on, LOL). Never fails, but one has to earn a living.

So what did you get now? A Classic?

I was thinking about it, but I like the Glide so I guess I'll have to put up with the EFI. If the tuner allows me to be totally independent of the dealers then my major concern would be taken care of anyway except on trips. Maybe I'll find a GF with a horse trailer to follow me.:D
 
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