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Old 04-05-2018, 09:04 AM   #61 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Greg_E View Post
Longevity hasn't ever really been a problem with cars because they all rust out before the engine gives out.
I posted this a few years ago and figure I would update and repost it.

Quote:
I've done some extensive oil testing (non scientific).... here's what I found

Scope of test:
Changing oil VS. Cost. With a secondary scope of effects of mixing different oils.

Experiment subjects:
Various 1979-1986 Subaru's
1978 Datsun B210 (put on 6,000 miles)
1992 Subaru (put on over 50K miles)
1996 Subaru (put on over 60K miles)
1998 Subaru (put on over 100K miles)
2000 Subaru (put on over 130K miles)

Experiment:
1. Never change oil. Only add oil (brand and viscosity not important). Change oil filter once in a great while if you happen to be right there and have one on hand. Earlier Subaru's never changed filter.
2. Find out how many miles before the engine fails
3. Test under extreme conditions
-a. In mud holes, streams and swamps
-b. High RPM shifts, Red line regularly
-c. Climb sides of mountains causing oil to flow to back of pan
-d. Roll over and leave running on side until flipped on wheels and continue to drive (Datsun B210)
-e. Datsun specific test, run on 10wt Hydraulic fluid for 6 weeks

Results:
All early Subaru's were retired to junkyards due to Rust, never lost an engine.
1978 Datsun B210 retired to junkyard after rolling over. Drove for 3 weeks after rolling it. Only had it on the road for a total of 6 weeks and ran Light weight Hydraulic fluid in the engine the entire time (got a free 5 gallons bucket). At that time I averaged 1000 miles a week and the engine ran great when I drove it to the junkyard.
1992 Subaru retired to junkyard with 210,000 miles Rusted out, engine ran great.
1996 Subaru, sold with 220,000 miles ran great
1998 Subaru, Sold with 200,000 miles on it and saw it a few years ago with 360,000 miles and still going
2000 Subaru, Sold with over 290,000 miles and still running

Notes:
1. In many of the cars I never changed the oil and only added. Didn't matter the brand, type or anything. If it was 2 quarts low I would add the cheapest I could find.
2. I beat many of these cars into the ground. Some I force fit between trees while 4 wheeling. Have had the hoods completely underwater crossing streams and ponds. Crossed rock walls, downed trees, telephone polls blocking trails and Anything else you can think of. The Engines NEVER Failed.
3. I used to do what I called 5-5 shifts in the standards. The 5-5 refereed to the RPM, Red line was 5500. Subaru's aren't fast, especially the old ones, 5-5 shift were just to keep if moving LOL.
4. The Datsun never had engine oil in it the entire time I owned it. The Hydraulic fluid I used I tried to light on fire to see if it would burn because I wasn't sure it was oil it was so thin!
5. The current Subaru gets oil changes about every 15K miles. In between oil changes I just add oil as required, usually a couple quarts at a time.
6. Many of these cars cost several hundred dollars.
7. In vehicles I care about I change the oil every 5K miles.

Conclusion:
If you have a Subaru you can pretty much do whatever you want as far as oil is concerned especially if it is a beater. The bottom line is they car will rust out from under you before the engine dies due to any oil related problem. I also suspect that would hold true for MANY other beater vehicles as well. In beaters it doesn't pay to change oil, it likely will not effect the life of the vehicle.

What does any of this prove? Well nothing really except I abused the crap out of some of my cars. It does however make me a lot less concerned about oil related matters. I've run Synthetic 4-stroke outboard oil in my Harley before. I have mixed oils countless times and regardless of any scientific and miniscule possibility of added wear, it has Never cost me any noticeable or detrimental damage. I would further say that many of the vehicles I put tens of thousands and on some hundred thousand plus miles without issue.

In Summation:
If you have a couple quarts of like oils, synthetic or not, 20w50, SAE 50 or whatever and you want to mix them and use between oil changes, I say GO FOR IT. Sh!ts too expensive to waste these days. I would do it in my Corvette, F350 truck or my Harleys and not think twice about it.
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Old 04-05-2018, 10:19 AM   #62 (permalink)
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Old 04-05-2018, 11:25 AM   #63 (permalink)
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I posted this a few years ago and figure I would update and repost it.
In my trucks, I change oil at 15k miles. My youngest inherited my last one and just got rid of it last month w/ 240k on it. The body was crap but the motor ran fine.

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Old 04-05-2018, 01:15 PM   #64 (permalink)
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In my trucks, I change oil at 15k miles. My youngest inherited my last one and just got rid of it last month w/ 240k on it. The body was crap but the motor ran fine.

I'm just here for the beer.
I had a 78 K10 that I put 375K miles on between 78 and 94. Never did any rust repairs to it. Just tried to keep the holes on the inside of the cab filled with spray foam. In the end the only thing holding the bed on was the spare tire wedged between the frame rail and the tool box. Every once and a while I would have to put the tail gate down and back into something to shove the bed back up against the cab. I kept some gum boots behind the seat for when it rained.

It never got anything but whatever dyno oil I was using in the shop at the time. But it got changed pretty religiously at 3000 miles. 1 cam shaft, two trans rebuilds, a few fuel pumps and about a dozen water pumps over its life. At the end it was using a qt of oil every time I needed gas. And that was like every 150 miles. It had two 16 gallon tanks, but one had holes rotted through the bottom.

I finally got an inspection ticket for the rust and had to park it.
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Old 04-05-2018, 02:14 PM   #65 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by georgedouglas View Post
I have been a licensed mechanic since 1969 and made my early living turning wrenches for over 30 years. I have had tons of training through the years and hardly any of it, while being a mechanic, pertained to oil other than systems and troubleshooting. I have not run into many mechanics that know anything about oil. I have been using and selling synthetics since 1981 and have many very sharp mechanics who operate their own shops as customers and they use me as their oil resource when questions do come up. Any mechanic that blames a problem based on the type of oil used is just a parts changer.
george
I kind of see where you're going with this. You have(had) a license, which means you can read a book. Tons of training!! Name one mechanic in the aerospace industry that doesn't have tons of training. I wonder though, how much of that training actually pertained to oils?

I have tried to use synthetics at least a few times in my life, never sold them. Every time I have used them, the oil pressure was lower, top end noises and noises from lifters, etc. . Not just in the bike, but in vehicles too.

Any mechanic that works on oil lubricated engines and can't see the differences when Syn is applied, or ignores lower oil pressure and noises, is not a mechanic at all. He's a salesman!

And if you're making a living peddling that crap, you are a good salesman! You could probably sell ice to and Eskimo!

You constantly want to compare yourself to me, or me to you. The topic is oil, syn vs conventional. We are not trying to figure out which one of us is the better mechanic. I've kept track of the years experience you have in each job and there is no way I can compete with 103 yrs of working experience!

Bottom line, Syn does not work well in my vehicles, in my location, in the temps that my engines go through. Obviously you've never heard the rattle in the rocker box on a harley after using Syn compared to dino.

You have never ran the syn for a about two tanks of fuel then changed it and personally observed the oil pressure higher and the engine quieter. Until you do, you'll never understand what I'm trying to say.

But, oil threads are for so....
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Old 04-05-2018, 10:58 PM   #66 (permalink)
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Mechanics fix things. Good mechanics may even make a small improvement when they fix something

Builders build things. Good builders can improvise because they really understand how things work

Designers design things. Good designers understand the theory of how things work and how things get built

Engineers engineer things. Good engineers find a balance between goals of economy, constructability, and maintenance - and they know how to do the math

I've never understood why so many people think that because they do one of those things they are automatically qualified to do any of the others.
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Old 04-06-2018, 07:25 AM   #67 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by 09DesertGlide View Post
I kind of see where you're going with this. You have(had) a license, which means you can read a book. Tons of training!! Name one mechanic in the aerospace industry that doesn't have tons of training. I wonder though, how much of that training actually pertained to oils?

I have tried to use synthetics at least a few times in my life, never sold them. Every time I have used them, the oil pressure was lower, top end noises and noises from lifters, etc. . Not just in the bike, but in vehicles too.

Any mechanic that works on oil lubricated engines and can't see the differences when Syn is applied, or ignores lower oil pressure and noises, is not a mechanic at all. He's a salesman!

And if you're making a living peddling that crap, you are a good salesman! You could probably sell ice to and Eskimo!

You constantly want to compare yourself to me, or me to you. The topic is oil, syn vs conventional. We are not trying to figure out which one of us is the better mechanic. I've kept track of the years experience you have in each job and there is no way I can compete with 103 yrs of working experience!

Bottom line, Syn does not work well in my vehicles, in my location, in the temps that my engines go through. Obviously you've never heard the rattle in the rocker box on a harley after using Syn compared to dino.

You have never ran the syn for a about two tanks of fuel then changed it and personally observed the oil pressure higher and the engine quieter. Until you do, you'll never understand what I'm trying to say.

But, oil threads are for so....
You just won't give up. This is not about what oil is best or who is the best mechanic. You continually attack me and bashing the oil I sell. I have had tons of oil training since 1981 by some of the industries best, from Lubrizol, Afton, Mobil Chemical company, and of course Amsoil. I sell Amsoil because I know it works with over 36 years of personal experience. The first oil I used from them I didn't take their word that it could be used for a year and up to 25,000 miles so I took oil samples to make sure and it verified their claims. I trust but verify like one of our presidents use to say about our government. I have refused to sell Amsoil over the years to people that have vehicles that won't benefit from it's use.

As far as my 103 years of experience that you can't seem to understand is I started turning wrenches when I got drafted into the Vietnam war in 1966 through 1970. I was 18 at the time and working at Ford motor companies engine plant building 289 engines. The USAF trained me to be a jet engine mechanic and was awarded the Vietnam service and south east Asia ribbons. In 1970 I was hired by Delta airlines as a line maintenance mechanic and moved up to lead mechanic and then Foreman retiring in 2001. During my time at Delta I started a part time Amsoil business in 1981 while continuing to work for Delta. I have always had a side business while working full time. I use to repair auto's and rebuild engines, use to repair TV's and Radio's and anything else that i could do with my hands and mind. Over the following years I was very fortunate to build one of the largest Amsoil businesses in the company and I attribute this to my background of understanding mechanical things as well as selling something I totally believe in.

As far as my motorcycle experience goes I started with a moped, Vespa, and Wizard before buying my first new motorcycle a Honda 305 cc superhawk. I have owned most of the metric bikes, BSA's, and 5 different harley's over the years and now have a Honda SilverQueen scooter.

The only reason for this long life report is to let you know who you are bashing. If you had done more research in old post you would see that I have not pushed my product down anyone's throat and actually defended other oils when they were blamed for mechanical failures that someone would post. This forum has been great for my business and I want to thank everyone for their past and current business.

I got a call yesterday for an oil order from a guy I have been selling to for many years and he now has over 400,000 miles on his pickup using Amsoil. It's funny that I have to waste time defending myself and product here to someone who will never change their mind.
george
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Old 04-06-2018, 08:33 AM   #68 (permalink)
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Greg_E wants to know Dino or Syn?
George,

If you have the time, I'd still like your knowledge/opinions on the use of a break in oil when building a new engine or when doing substantial work like a new top end and cams.

I've used this type of oil when I rebuilt my Buell, it ran OK but was a little hot and a little loud. Switched to Mobile 1 4T (10w40 synthetic) and it still ran a bit warm and a little loud, then switched back to my preferred Mobile 1 Vtwin 20w50 and everything was good again. Went about 600 miles on the break in oil, another maybe 100 on the 4T before I decided I better just go back to what I knew worked. Of that process, only the break in oil had to be ordered and I was ordering a bunch of other stuff at the time so it was OK. Unless there is a reason to use break in oil, I'll probably just skip it the next time I do that kind of work since the motorcycle oils seem to have a higher level of zinc in them to begin with.
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Old 04-06-2018, 12:05 PM   #69 (permalink)
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George,

If you have the time, I'd still like your knowledge/opinions on the use of a break in oil when building a new engine or when doing substantial work like a new top end and cams.

I've used this type of oil when I rebuilt my Buell, it ran OK but was a little hot and a little loud. Switched to Mobile 1 4T (10w40 synthetic) and it still ran a bit warm and a little loud, then switched back to my preferred Mobile 1 Vtwin 20w50 and everything was good again. Went about 600 miles on the break in oil, another maybe 100 on the 4T before I decided I better just go back to what I knew worked. Of that process, only the break in oil had to be ordered and I was ordering a bunch of other stuff at the time so it was OK. Unless there is a reason to use break in oil, I'll probably just skip it the next time I do that kind of work since the motorcycle oils seem to have a higher level of zinc in them to begin with.
Greg, just use an oil that is high in Zinc and phosphorous and has no friction modifiers in it. The break in oil also is used to wash out any manufacturing debris so I wouldn't leave it in that long. I recently did a top overhaul one of my airplanes where I replaced all the cylinders, installed new higher compression pistons, and used a straight grade mineral based aviation oil to wear in the new rings. After a few hours in the air and there was no oil consumption I felt the rings had seated so then I replaced the oil.
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Old 04-06-2018, 02:38 PM   #70 (permalink)
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09DesertGlide is reading this now saying WTF is this? 09DesertGlide is reading this now saying WTF is this?
Quote:
Originally Posted by georgedouglas View Post
You just won't give up. This is not about what oil is best or who is the best mechanic. You continually attack me and bashing the oil I sell. I have had tons of oil training since 1981 by some of the industries best, from Lubrizol, Afton, Mobil Chemical company, and of course Amsoil. I sell Amsoil because I know it works with over 36 years of personal experience. The first oil I used from them I didn't take their word that it could be used for a year and up to 25,000 miles so I took oil samples to make sure and it verified their claims. I trust but verify like one of our presidents use to say about our government. I have refused to sell Amsoil over the years to people that have vehicles that won't benefit from it's use.

As far as my 103 years of experience that you can't seem to understand is I started turning wrenches when I got drafted into the Vietnam war in 1966 through 1970. I was 18 at the time and working at Ford motor companies engine plant building 289 engines. The USAF trained me to be a jet engine mechanic and was awarded the Vietnam service and south east Asia ribbons. In 1970 I was hired by Delta airlines as a line maintenance mechanic and moved up to lead mechanic and then Foreman retiring in 2001. During my time at Delta I started a part time Amsoil business in 1981 while continuing to work for Delta. I have always had a side business while working full time. I use to repair auto's and rebuild engines, use to repair TV's and Radio's and anything else that i could do with my hands and mind. Over the following years I was very fortunate to build one of the largest Amsoil businesses in the company and I attribute this to my background of understanding mechanical things as well as selling something I totally believe in.

As far as my motorcycle experience goes I started with a moped, Vespa, and Wizard before buying my first new motorcycle a Honda 305 cc superhawk. I have owned most of the metric bikes, BSA's, and 5 different harley's over the years and now have a Honda SilverQueen scooter.

The only reason for this long life report is to let you know who you are bashing. If you had done more research in old post you would see that I have not pushed my product down anyone's throat and actually defended other oils when they were blamed for mechanical failures that someone would post. This forum has been great for my business and I want to thank everyone for their past and current business.

I got a call yesterday for an oil order from a guy I have been selling to for many years and he now has over 400,000 miles on his pickup using Amsoil. It's funny that I have to waste time defending myself and product here to someone who will never change their mind.
george
You're not following me, at all. I admit I did bash on you a little, but only because you bashed on me a little. It's all in jest, I hope it doesn't offend you.

To continue this...

Tons of training? Can training be weighed in tons? I have four tool boxes and all four lids are covered with training certificates. I can take all of those training certificates, pair them with your tons of training, stand all of that next to my motor and it WILL STILL rattle like marbles in a tin can if there is syn oil in it. Funny how that works, huh? The motor and oil doesn't give a damn about our training!

I'm not bashing you for selling the product. I even mentioned that you must be a great salesman. Most people will listen to everything a salesman says about their product and take it as the gospel. I've even done that in some instances.

Salesmen have a gift of gab. They can say things like to break in a motor you need "oil that is high in Zinc and phosphorous and has no friction modifiers", and Boom! Someone is going to believe it.
Even though most modern engines require no break in.

No synthetic for me. The web is full of stories of engine noise and low pressures. I have my own story!
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Old 04-06-2018, 06:00 PM   #71 (permalink)
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You're not following me, at all. I admit I did bash on you a little, but only because you bashed on me a little. It's all in jest, I hope it doesn't offend you.

To continue this...

Tons of training? Can training be weighed in tons? I have four tool boxes and all four lids are covered with training certificates. I can take all of those training certificates, pair them with your tons of training, stand all of that next to my motor and it WILL STILL rattle like marbles in a tin can if there is syn oil in it. Funny how that works, huh? The motor and oil doesn't give a damn about our training!

I'm not bashing you for selling the product. I even mentioned that you must be a great salesman. Most people will listen to everything a salesman says about their product and take it as the gospel. I've even done that in some instances.

Salesmen have a gift of gab. They can say things like to break in a motor you need "oil that is high in Zinc and phosphorous and has no friction modifiers", and Boom! Someone is going to believe it.
Even though most modern engines require no break in.

No synthetic for me. The web is full of stories of engine noise and low pressures. I have my own story!
You have a real distrust of salesman. You must have really gotten burned in the past. As far as my recommendation for break in oil for Greg he was not talking about modern engines with roller lifters that do not require as much anti-wear agents in the oil. My recommendation for him was accurate. Many engine builders use break in oil, especially for high performance engines. We aren't talking about production factory engines needing any break in oil like years ago. Have you looked at the spec sheets of a break in oil? When did you become the oil thread cop?
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Old 04-06-2018, 07:08 PM   #72 (permalink)
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Look people, talk about oil all you want. But keep it civil. This is not R&P.

If you disagree with another members view on something, then state your side and move on. Do not make your point by insulting those who do not agree with you.
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Old 04-07-2018, 12:35 PM   #73 (permalink)
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I'm no wrench by any means but it would seem to me if an engine rattles, there's an engine/parts fit issue, more so than an oil issue. My 103 has a minor top end rattle (as many 103s do) and thanks to the more knowledgeable people on this site and viewing a few vids, I'm think'n it's likely the rockers, not the Mobile 1 V-Twin 20/50 I use. The 88 in my '01 Heritage has little to no mechanical rattle and I use the same 20/50 oil in it....go figure. I suppose I could switch to dino in my 103 but I like that the synth gives better protection against heat.

Each to his own. I just luv oil threads
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Old 04-07-2018, 01:09 PM   #74 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thermodyne View Post
Look people, talk about oil all you want. But keep it civil. This is not R&P.

...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Willyone View Post
... Each to his own. I just luv oil threads
I think I just realized why oil threads are what they are. It's because when it comes to oil, so few people have any real factual knowledge that it is just like a thread in R&P, because it's almost entirely based upon opinions.

The only person on this site I really believe has any practical knowledge of oils is George. We need Boris back.
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Old 04-07-2018, 04:05 PM   #75 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thermodyne View Post
Look people, talk about oil all you want. But keep it civil. This is not R&P.

If you disagree with another members view on something, then state your side and move on. Do not make your point by insulting those who do not agree with you.

man....seems pretty tame to me, i see respect between the
contenders.... a little hall way talk but no scuffles out back.

R&P is a toilet.
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