Syn vs conventional - Page 3 : V-Twin Forum: Harley Davidson Forums
» Sponsors

Go Back   V-Twin Forum : Harley-Davidson Motorcycle Forums > Technical Discussion Forums > Engine Oils and Lubrication
New User? Register Forgot Password

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 03-30-2018, 02:50 PM   #31 (permalink)
VTF Site Sponsor
 
springer-'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Maine
Posts: 11,211
springer- is still riding a stock bike springer- is still riding a stock bike
Quote:
Originally Posted by robzombie4551 View Post
Than what relevance does that video have if we can't compare it or relate it's use in an HD or real world conditions?
It explains Viscosity very well. Many people don't understand the numbers on the oil. You would also be surprised how many people don't understand tire number either but that is a different thread all together.

Real world uses... The cold temp viscosity is important and understanding it directly relates to Harley's. You may not think it applies to you because you live in warm weather climate. I live in Maine and while it does get very cold here and rarely do I ride when it is below 50, I used to ride all winter long. That said I have also ridden in Florida in February in freezing temps (below 32). If you run a straight weight oil in a Harley in those temps it is a real possibility to shear oil pump keys and do other damage from lack of oil flow during startup and warm up.

Keep in mind it also gets over 100 here in the summer so warm weather riding applies to us as well.

It doesn't have to be in -35 temps to understand that Synthetic oil is significantly better than "Dino" oil (really Mineral oil).


Quote:
Originally Posted by robzombie4551 View Post
No not to slippery, To thin and not enough cushion between moving parts which is obvious to anyone using it and seeing the oil pressure difference and drivetrain noise between the two.
Prior to HD selling Synthetic oils it was common for the dealers to say "it's too slippery". Obviously that was BS (lies).

Synthetic definitely has different properties than regular Mineral oils however it is not "thinner". Viscosity is Viscosity.

Synthetic has different Flow properties. It starts with understanding what Synthetic oil is. Synthetic oil is derived from Mineral oil (regular oil, crude oil etc.). Regular Mineral oils have oil particles of many different sizes, for this analogy we'll used sports balls. Regular oil has baseball, golf ball, basketball, softball and marble size particle (microscopic of course). The larger particles create the "cushion" and break down quicker because they are the only ones doing the job. Synthetic oil is really just a very consistent oil particle size, all baseballs for example, none of the other sizes. Obviously simplified for this description. With consistent particle sizes there is more contact to more particles and less breakdown. The consistency also effects many other properties that lend itself to better protection.

Oil pumps don't make pressure they make oil flow. The resistance to oil flow creates pressure. In a car engine the bearings are babbitt type bearings and bushings. In a Harley the bearings are roller and ball bearing types. In a car the oil has to be forced through very tight tolerances significantly hampering the flow causing pressure to build up at the pump. The Harley engine only has 1 place that limits the flow of oil, the lifters. Once the oil builds up pressure it opens a bypass valve and feeds oil to the crank bearings. There are much larger spaces for the oil to go in roller and ball bearings.

With Synthetic oils in a Harley engine, especially an older worn engine, the oil flows well and builds up less pressure. The result can be a noisier engine, likely due to lifters not being able to stay pumped up properly. However don't confuse that with lack of protection of moving parts and proper oiling protection.

In my shovel I run Synthetic oil however I know I need to run straight 50 or 60 through the summer. If I want to run in colder weather I change it for 20-50. For the exact reasons shown in the video.

Quote:
Originally Posted by robzombie4551 View Post
As to the Harley statement you made, yeah they only sell quality products and have a history of building a bike with no engineering problems they refuse to fix.
Please be more specific as to what "Harley statement" I made. In fact point it out because I don't recall ever making a statement like you say.

Quote:
Originally Posted by robzombie4551 View Post
Use what you want I'm not selling anything and am just sharing my views on that video that has no base in reality except to prove SYNCRAP outflows dino at -35*

When is the video of the two where they are compared at 300* coming out of an engine and comparing the viscosity at real world temps?
SYNCRAP as you put it is far better oil in every way. Using it in the right application is also important. It's not hard to figure out how to use it effectively. It's in every vehicle I own including both my Shovelheads.

Fun Facts, Dino oil AKA Dinosaur oil or Fossil Fuel is a myth. The oil that comes out of the ground isn't old decomposed Dinosaurs as once thought. Organic oils from decomposed organic or Biological material are based on Carbon 12 isotopes. Actual oil of a Mineral form (oil for our engines and fuel) is based on Carbon 13 isotopes. So using the term "Dino" to describe motor oil of any types is incorrect.

As for your 300* comparison, it reminded me of an old commercial and sure enough it is on youtube ...


Disclaimer, I don't sell oil. I don't care what oil you choose. I don't care if you bury your head in the sand and ignore facts from ALL major manufacturers that extensively test their engine with said oil.
springer- is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Old 03-30-2018, 04:28 PM   #32 (permalink)
Master Motorhead
 
Thermodyne's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: V-Twin Forum Elite
Posts: 18,908
Thermodyne joined the Live to Ride club Thermodyne joined the Live to Ride club Thermodyne joined the Live to Ride club Thermodyne joined the Live to Ride club Thermodyne joined the Live to Ride club
Quote:
Originally Posted by <G Man> View Post
So, you have 7 posts on this site and 5 of them are in this OLD thread. Seems to me you have an agenda, contrary to what you say.

Oil is not supposed to "cushion" parts, it's supposed to lubricate them and, in the case of an air cooled engine, to pull heat from bad places to places it can dissipate. That said, it is well tested and documented that synthetics hold up much better to that heat than dino oils. There are plenty of videos and plenty of reading available on the subject. Check out Google some time.

As far as the cold start thing, it is also well tested and documented that most engine wear happens during startups when there is no oil flowing yet, so, that isn't really an insignificant thing. High viscosity is great, unless it keeps the oil from getting to where you want it to be.

So, care to explain why you keep harping on the subject if your stance is "to each, his own"? I mean, really, I don't give a flyin' fuk what you use or what you believe, so why is this such a big deal to you?
Don't feed the trolls
__________________
Thermodyne is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 03-30-2018, 05:10 PM   #33 (permalink)
IronButt
 
captainhook455's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Location: Nakina NC 28455
Posts: 9,471
captainhook455 is reading this now saying WTF is this?
I don't understand how people can get bent out of shape from a subject like oil. Paragraphs of information that has been on other oil threads. Yet told like they the only one that thought of such wisdom.

I believe we should speak about something important like coconut oil. Obama traded nuclear plant secrets and in return we got coconuts. My wife likes coconut oil too.
captainhook455 is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-30-2018, 07:23 PM   #34 (permalink)
IronButt
 
Willyone's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Central NY
Posts: 5,017
Willyone is still riding a stock bike Willyone is still riding a stock bike
Thank you, Springer!! Now I know what to fry my eggs in

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_c...&v=beyNfMAQRlA
__________________
black bikes matter

Rocket Man
Willyone is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 03-30-2018, 07:56 PM   #35 (permalink)
VTF Site Sponsor
 
georgedouglas's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: USA
Posts: 2,234
georgedouglas is reading this now saying WTF is this?
It is refreshing to see good logic educated responses to these 100% opinion based post that totally lack logic and the law of physics.

Back when I first joined this forum and was the first paid sponsor I would have to spend a lot of time dispelling myths about synthetic oil with logic and facts. Not so much now as more people have learned and experienced what synthetics can do above and beyond conventional oils. Is synthetics right for all applications? NO as there are many applications that conventional oils still work well.
george
__________________
http://oilhelp.com/motorcycles
Buying Amsoil from us, your forum sponsor, helps to support this site. Orders are shipped ASAP from our nearest US or Canadian warehouse. FREE SHIPPING on most orders! Call for details and price quotes.
[email protected] or 1-800-887-6698 or http://oilhelp.com/motorcycles
georgedouglas is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 03-30-2018, 08:07 PM   #36 (permalink)
VTF Site Sponsor
 
springer-'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Maine
Posts: 11,211
springer- is still riding a stock bike springer- is still riding a stock bike
Quote:
Originally Posted by Willyone View Post
Thank you, Springer!! Now I know what to fry my eggs in

LOL and that reminded me of another old commercial that I never really understood....


Seriously how do you like your eggs? I like them Fried!
springer- is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 03-30-2018, 11:01 PM   #37 (permalink)
IronButt
 
autoworker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: SW Ohio
Posts: 2,430
autoworker wants to know Dino or Syn?
https://youtu.be/beyNfMAQRlA
Looks to me that conventional motor oil gets pretty thick around 300 degrees.
__________________
Motorcycle Poor
autoworker is online now   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 03-31-2018, 09:51 AM   #38 (permalink)
Master Motorhead
 
Thermodyne's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: V-Twin Forum Elite
Posts: 18,908
Thermodyne joined the Live to Ride club Thermodyne joined the Live to Ride club Thermodyne joined the Live to Ride club Thermodyne joined the Live to Ride club Thermodyne joined the Live to Ride club
When I was a teenager, I worked in a little shop left over from the 1920's. And on Sunday mornings we did oil changes for the church going folks. The oil was QS and QS Deluxe. 10/40 was the weight most cars took. It was just a flat garage with no lifts, we did oil changes with an air powered bumper jack and a creeper.

In the winter it would be below freezing in the shop and there was a wood stove for heat. That dyno oil would be so thick it didn't want to pour out of the can. So we would set the cans on top of the wood stove to warm them up.

It was the old paper cans with the metal end caps. One morning I got busy pumping gas out front and left the oil on the stove too long. When I got back to the shop the cans were all swelled up on the ends and kind of leaning over.

So I eased them off the stove and into a bucket, and got some more oil for that car. On the next car I used the cans that had been cooking too long. The oil was noticeable darker than what normally came out of a can. Looked about like the recycled oil we sold out front for the poor folks driving junkers.
__________________
Thermodyne is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 04-02-2018, 01:57 PM   #39 (permalink)
IronButt
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: Arizona
Posts: 1,577
09DesertGlide is reading this now saying WTF is this? 09DesertGlide is reading this now saying WTF is this?
I haven't found an application yet where the syn is better. I tried it in my Harley and the top end noise increased substantially. Switching back to dino solve it, no other changes happened. I know some people believe that noise can be a good thing, or that it isn't a bad thing, but in a gas combustion engine, it is very bad.

I drive an F350 with the 6.0 TD. I was told that the full syn rotella was the way to go. After about 7 thousand miles on the full syn with one change at 5K, I started getting "stiction". After doing a lot of research I found the stiction is common in the international engines if you run the synthetic oil. You can buy an additive called revX and add it to the oil to solve the problem, sort of. The stiction goes away but you still have a loss in mileage of about 100 miles per tank.

So, I did some research on the RevX product and found it is mostly mineral oil. So, if I run synthetic in my engine I have to add mineral oil.

I changed all the injectors and went back to dino oil. It's nice to look at the dash after a fill up and see 545 miles to E instead of 410 miles to E.

No more syn for me. I don't care what other people use, and I've never, ever heard a salesman put down the product they are selling. If you want the truth about oils, do your own research.

Just my contribution to
09DesertGlide is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 04-02-2018, 03:39 PM   #40 (permalink)
IronButt
 
captainhook455's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Location: Nakina NC 28455
Posts: 9,471
captainhook455 is reading this now saying WTF is this?
Quote:
Originally Posted by 09DesertGlide View Post
I haven't found an application yet where the syn is better. I tried it in my Harley and the top end noise increased substantially. Switching back to dino solve it, no other changes happened. I know some people believe that noise can be a good thing, or that it isn't a bad thing, but in a gas combustion engine, it is very bad.

I drive an F350 with the 6.0 TD. I was told that the full syn rotella was the way to go. After about 7 thousand miles on the full syn with one change at 5K, I started getting "stiction". After doing a lot of research I found the stiction is common in the international engines if you run the synthetic oil. You can buy an additive called revX and add it to the oil to solve the problem, sort of. The stiction goes away but you still have a loss in mileage of about 100 miles per tank.

So, I did some research on the RevX product and found it is mostly mineral oil. So, if I run synthetic in my engine I have to add mineral oil.

I changed all the injectors and went back to dino oil. It's nice to look at the dash after a fill up and see 545 miles to E instead of 410 miles to E.

No more syn for me. I don't care what other people use, and I've never, ever heard a salesman put down the product they are selling. If you want the truth about oils, do your own research.

Just my contribution to
This is the best post I have heard yet. Tell like it is.
captainhook455 is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 04-02-2018, 07:37 PM   #41 (permalink)
Banned
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
Location: USA
Posts: 9
robzombie4551 wants to know Dino or Syn?
Quote:
Originally Posted by captainhook455 View Post
This is the best post I have heard yet. Tell like it is.
I agree. Tell it like it is.
robzombie4551 is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 04-02-2018, 07:45 PM   #42 (permalink)
Banned
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
Location: USA
Posts: 9
robzombie4551 wants to know Dino or Syn?
I have no axe to grind and being new here I posted in this oil thread only to add my experience with the bike I just bought. I have been a mechanic myself for over thirty five years and have tried every brand and type of oil at one time or another. The 110" does recommend SYNCRAP and that's what was in it when I bought it. After 1,500 miles in cool temp riding it was noisy as hell.

I took it to a professional Harley mechanic as I work on water cooled engines. He recommended that I put the dino in there and lucas. Now I have been using that in cars and trucks for years with great results. I asked a Harley mechanic whos worked for HD 40 years ago and has had his own business for over 25. I didn't tell him what I wanted to put in there, but when he told me what he runs and how long he has used it it only confirmed what I already thought. As stated before I changed oil to dino and lucas and motor now is quiet with normal oil pressure at all times.

I have no agenda and am not trolling. If the syn users get a case of BUTT hurt when someone shares their experience then so be it. I disrespected no one and just because I'm new to the forum and you don't agree with what I say that's your problem. Your bikes might love that SYNCRAP and so be it use it and love it for all I care.

I and many others have had the same problem with top end noise using that stuff and the problem went away after changing to dino. I'm noy telling anyone to do what I have, just that my motor doesn't like syn.

I have never used it in my older HD's and never had problems with those either. The 110" is new to me and HD recommends the syn so I got a second opinion from a trusted person with no agenda except keeping HD's running at their best.

I won't even go into the other vids in this thread as I didn't watch them and don't GOFF what they have to say. My problem is solved and shared that.

Let people share their experiences so others may gain something from it. Lastly I know syn flows better but it should as it's thin as water. The tolerances in these bikes are not what they should be. The proof is in the pressure drop with syn oil and the inherent noise that some people experience when using that product. What good is a lubricating oil if it allows metal on metal contact. I'm no engineer but my ears have always told me the truth. If syn flows better cold it flows real real real good hot! The oil pressure drop proves that. The drop in pressure results in the oil being thinner and the pump not having to overcome that resistance, but that also means less cushion between moving parts.

Whoever in this thread said syn is better at removing heat, they are right! Maybe that's the reason it thins out so bad.

Last edited by robzombie4551; 04-03-2018 at 07:40 AM. Reason: spelling
robzombie4551 is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 04-02-2018, 07:59 PM   #43 (permalink)
IronButt
 
captainhook455's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Location: Nakina NC 28455
Posts: 9,471
captainhook455 is reading this now saying WTF is this?
In this forum we love to agree to disagree, besides we have a thing for zombies.lol.
captainhook455 is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 04-02-2018, 08:41 PM   #44 (permalink)
IronButt
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: Central NY
Posts: 2,015
Greg_E wants to know Dino or Syn?
If you change it often enough, there will be little difference down the road.
__________________
My miniGP racing stuff: http://minigp-racing.com
Greg_E is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 04-03-2018, 08:56 AM   #45 (permalink)
VTF Site Sponsor
 
georgedouglas's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: USA
Posts: 2,234
georgedouglas is reading this now saying WTF is this?
Quote:
Originally Posted by 09DesertGlide View Post
I haven't found an application yet where the syn is better. I tried it in my Harley and the top end noise increased substantially. Switching back to dino solve it, no other changes happened. I know some people believe that noise can be a good thing, or that it isn't a bad thing, but in a gas combustion engine, it is very bad.

I drive an F350 with the 6.0 TD. I was told that the full syn rotella was the way to go. After about 7 thousand miles on the full syn with one change at 5K, I started getting "stiction". After doing a lot of research I found the stiction is common in the international engines if you run the synthetic oil. You can buy an additive called revX and add it to the oil to solve the problem, sort of. The stiction goes away but you still have a loss in mileage of about 100 miles per tank.

So, I did some research on the RevX product and found it is mostly mineral oil. So, if I run synthetic in my engine I have to add mineral oil.

I changed all the injectors and went back to dino oil. It's nice to look at the dash after a fill up and see 545 miles to E instead of 410 miles to E.

No more syn for me. I don't care what other people use, and I've never, ever heard a salesman put down the product they are selling. If you want the truth about oils, do your own research.

Just my contribution to
I have had totally different results than what you point out in hundreds of power stroke customers since Ford started using the international engine and then when they went to the Powerstroke fuel injection system back in 1993 where oil is used for the hydraulic muscle power to open and close the injectors. The 6.0 engine you have is the worst diesel engine Ford came out with after finally getting all the bugs worked out of the 7.3. That engine has created an entire new cottage industry of bullet proofing it with new head bolts, injectors, and other mods. This Stiction you talk about is a newly created term created by those that monetarily benefit from selling additives to mask the real problem of poor injectors and or inferior oil that doesn't stand up to the entire oil change interval. RevX is a high priced rip off that many petroleum oil users buy into.

You state you are a mechanic so you must know how the oil pressure is jacked up and sent to the high pressure reservoir in your 6.0 and when you change your oil you still have a few quarts of used oil in the system. You should also know that if using an oil that has poor anti-foaming agents in it's oil will cause the injectors to operate like crap once those agents are used up and now the oil gets to much foam. Hydraulics don't operate well with foam in the system of course. This was the initial problem Ford had in the 7.3 where the oils of that day wouldn't stand up to this high pressure system for the injectors and their anti-foaming agents went south. Ford would just change the oil under warranty and everything was good again for a few more miles. You should also know that an oil at operating temperature has the same thickness no matter if it is dino or synthetic. You should also know that noise does not relate to wear. If that was true your noisy diesel engine would self destruct from the combustion noise it makes. If noise related to wear why do the UOA reports show less wear in PPM using Amsoil for example or at least equal? Take a look at some of the oil reports on this forum to prove my point. Also you should know that no metal to metal contact is happening because of the noise and if it was the oil itself has sacrificial additives to plate out the metal so this doesn't happen for example when making cold starts where some oils are a little slower at making the oil circuit. I could go on and on about oils and diesels, as I have 6 diesels presently all using synthetics for years and guess what, none of them have had your experience. I also have a Powerstroke that runs very nice without your Stiction problem.

You have your opinions and that's fine, but you have no facts to back up your concern with wear. How many UOA samples have you pulled to check your fears of wear when you hear noise? What about the noise you hear when you first shift to first gear from neutral in your bike? Does that cause wear? If so then that would also show up on UOA reports. I have taken many samples on the HD tranny and guess what no wear. When I grew up in the fifties many used car lots would put saw dust in noisy manual shift transmissions to quiet them down. No noise now, but just because it was quiet did that fix anything?
george
__________________
http://oilhelp.com/motorcycles
Buying Amsoil from us, your forum sponsor, helps to support this site. Orders are shipped ASAP from our nearest US or Canadian warehouse. FREE SHIPPING on most orders! Call for details and price quotes.
[email protected] or 1-800-887-6698 or http://oilhelp.com/motorcycles

Last edited by georgedouglas; 04-03-2018 at 09:02 AM.
georgedouglas is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the V-Twin Forum : Harley-Davidson Motorcycle Forums forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself. WE WILL SEND A CONFIRMATION EMAIL TO THE ADDRESS YOU PROVIDE. If the email address is NOT VALID, you will not be given access to the system!
Email Address:
Motorcycle Year/Make
Location
Where you live
Security Question
*Required, this field is not shown to others: While balancing on a piece of wood, two inches by four inches known as a 2x4, john and his friend sally both spotted a dalmatian inside a truck with sirens, headed to put out a fire. State what kind of animal is mentioned in the sentence above.

Log-in


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are On


Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v3.2.2

All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:07 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Content Relevant URLs by vBSEO 3.6.0
vBulletin Security provided by vBSecurity v2.2.2 (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2019 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
(C)2001-2012 V-twinForum.com All Rights Reserved (C)2001- V-twinForum.com All Rights Reserved
Motorcycle News, Videos and Reviews
Honda Grom Forum strong>Kawasaki Z125 Forum Harley Davidson Forum Honda 600RR Forum Kawasaki Forum Yamaha R6 Forum Yamaha FZ-09 Forum
1199 Panigale Forum Honda Africa Twin Forum Roadglide Forum Honda CBR1000 Forum Vulcan Forum Yamaha R1 Forum Yamaha R3 Forum
Ducati Monster Forum Harley Forums Honda CBR250R Forum ZX10R Forum Star Raider Forum Yamaha Viking Forum
Suzuki GSXR Forum V-Rod Forums Honda Shadow Forum Kawasaki Motorcycle Forum Star Warrior Forum KTM Duke 390 Forum
SV650 Forum BMW S1000RR Forum Honda Fury Forum Kawasaki Versys Forum Drag Racing Forum Ducati 899 Panigale Forum Ducati 959 Panigale Forum
Suzuki V-Strom BMW K1600 Triumph Forum Victory Forums Sportbikes BMW NineT Forum
Volusia Forum BMW F800 Forum Triumph 675 Forum MV Agusta Forum HD Street Forum Suzuki GW250 Forum
Yamaha Motorcycles Victory Gunner Forum Victory Charger Forum Honda Vultus Forum HD LiveWire Forum Ninja H2 Forum
BMW Scrambler Forum Ducati Scrambler Forum Kawasaki Ninja 250SL Forum