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Old 10-21-2015, 10:13 AM   #121 (permalink)
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Since these mostly have a third reservoir for the transmission, they should always be pretty clean. Primary should always be dirty from the clutch.

My guess is that the BelRay is meant for mixed transmission/primary like on the Sporties and Buells.
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Old 10-21-2015, 10:48 AM   #122 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Greg_E View Post
Since these mostly have a third reservoir for the transmission, they should always be pretty clean. Primary should always be dirty from the clutch.

My guess is that the BelRay is meant for mixed transmission/primary like on the Sporties and Buells.
I don't think it's designed for mixed application. Called "Big Twin Transmission Oil", and is very tacky. I wouldn't want it in my primary.
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Old 10-21-2015, 07:18 PM   #123 (permalink)
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Different schools of thought or are we missing something?
I'd say both different schools of thought and the fact that just about anything works in them because the Harley transmission has low-loading on the components.

For years and years Eaton Fuller recommended SAE30 mineral oil in their 9,10, 13, 15 and 18 speed Roadranger transmissions in heavy trucks. These transmissions are huge 2,000 lb versions of a Harley transmission - straight cut gears with no synchronizers, except they are twin-countershaft to reduce loads on the case by splitting torque between two shafts.

Then Eaton went to the PS-386 spec when they started up-rating designs like the 9513, designed to handle 950 lbs of torque continuous, to the 16713A-series which handles 1,260 lbs of torque continuous and 1,670 lbs intermittent. The major change was the addition of an oil cooler and pump to circulate oil thru the cooler, and a different synthetic lubricant, which happens to be ATF-spec Eaton-branded lubricant. The key to handling more torque was not the design, but simply getting rid of heat.

Unfortunately, Harley-Davidson being with the same supplier for many years, has not really kept up to pace on lubricant technology, and their corresponding recommendations. I remember back in the day when Donny Peterson of Heavy Duty Cycles, who probably knows more about Harley's than the MoCo themselves, disagreed with the MoCo's recommendations on lubricants. Especially where people were using SAE 60 and SAE70 in the Shovelheads. Donny said it was causing main bearing failures because the bearing rollers skid and gall the races instead of rolling like they should. The MoCo took issue with his statements in American Iron at the time. 15 years later they switched directions and agreed with Donny.
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Old 10-25-2015, 07:41 AM   #124 (permalink)
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Don't use automotive motor oil in your primary. It has friction modifiers in it. Your clutch will slip with heavy use or hot weather or both. I use Ford Type F tranny fluid at about 5 bucks a quart from O'Reileys. Works great in the primary. In the Harley tranny I've tried about everything. The best shifts and least metal shavings on the drain plug at change time comes from using Harley Formula +. I change both the primary and tranny fluids when the shifting begins to clunk again and that's anywhere from 2,500 miles to 5,000 miles. This works for me, but it's just my opinion. Hope it helps.
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Old 10-25-2015, 08:14 AM   #125 (permalink)
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Don't use automotive motor oil in your primary. It has friction modifiers in it. Your clutch will slip with heavy use or hot weather or both. I use Ford Type F tranny fluid at about 5 bucks a quart from O'Reileys. Works great in the primary. In the Harley tranny I've tried about everything. The best shifts and least metal shavings on the drain plug at change time comes from using Harley Formula +. I change both the primary and tranny fluids when the shifting begins to clunk again and that's anywhere from 2,500 miles to 5,000 miles. This works for me, but it's just my opinion. Hope it helps.
The problem with non wet clutch specific oils to be used in the primary is not whether they have friction modifiers or not, it is that if they do contain friction modifiers that they be the correct type for the application. Friction modifiers are used in lubricants to increase HP or they can be the type for wet clutch operation, so the word friction modifiers has no real bearing on how the clutch will perform or live a long life.

On your comment concerning the formula+ you are using you mentioned that after X amount of miles your clunk comes back. If this is the case you really need to look at using a different lubricant for those applications.
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Old 10-25-2015, 08:26 AM   #126 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by 86FLHT View Post
I'd say both different schools of thought and the fact that just about anything works in them because the Harley transmission has low-loading on the components.

For years and years Eaton Fuller recommended SAE30 mineral oil in their 9,10, 13, 15 and 18 speed Roadranger transmissions in heavy trucks. These transmissions are huge 2,000 lb versions of a Harley transmission - straight cut gears with no synchronizers, except they are twin-countershaft to reduce loads on the case by splitting torque between two shafts.

Then Eaton went to the PS-386 spec when they started up-rating designs like the 9513, designed to handle 950 lbs of torque continuous, to the 16713A-series which handles 1,260 lbs of torque continuous and 1,670 lbs intermittent. The major change was the addition of an oil cooler and pump to circulate oil thru the cooler, and a different synthetic lubricant, which happens to be ATF-spec Eaton-branded lubricant. The key to handling more torque was not the design, but simply getting rid of heat.

Unfortunately, Harley-Davidson being with the same supplier for many years, has not really kept up to pace on lubricant technology, and their corresponding recommendations. I remember back in the day when Donny Peterson of Heavy Duty Cycles, who probably knows more about Harley's than the MoCo themselves, disagreed with the MoCo's recommendations on lubricants. Especially where people were using SAE 60 and SAE70 in the Shovelheads. Donny said it was causing main bearing failures because the bearing rollers skid and gall the races instead of rolling like they should. The MoCo took issue with his statements in American Iron at the time. 15 years later they switched directions and agreed with Donny.
Sounds like you have a good background in the trucking or heavy equipment industry. You do mention that HD uses straight cut gears, but I think you may not be correct at least in the twin cam bikes. They use helical cut gears and then when they came out with the 6 speed trannies they used the straight cut gears in first and 5th I believe and those straight cut gears were very loud. The design of gears used in any tranny or gearbox is determined by design engineers based on the load and or torque that will be applied to the gears and then spec out a lubricant that will handle that design. Straight cut and helical gears can use motor oils as well as gear lubes in most automotive and motorcycle applications.
george
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Old 10-26-2015, 10:38 AM   #127 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by georgedouglas View Post
They use helical cut gears and then when they came out with the 6 speed trannies they used the straight cut gears in first and 5th I believe and those straight cut gears were very loud.
Yes, the 6spd has both types of gears in it. The helical gears impose axial loads on the bearings for the shafts. The spur gears impose radial loads. The spur gears create more noise, but not all that bad in my opinion. The old 5 speeds are all spur gears.

Just about anything that looks like oil will work in these transmissions. They are pretty simple outfits with no synchronizers that require any specific viscosity so as to prevent viscous drag on gear sets. I think the lighter weight oils are better for needle bearings. But then these transmissions don't get used in sub-zero weather, so that's not really an issue either.

I just know that ATF works in them fine because I been using it for thousands of miles with no issues at all. And my old 5 speed clunks when it shifts, and it makes gear noise - but that's the design. I've heard all these claims about super-smooth no clunk shifting and whatnot, and I've just never seen it because it's not the way these transmissions are. They are, however, incredibly tough just about bullet proof gearboxes. Eventually the shift forks will wear on the helical gears because of axial loading. And the drum will wear in all them from repeated cycling. But most of them are in the 150-200,000 mile range before they get to that point and the rebuild is pretty simple and not that expensive.

So I consider them to be one of the better designs in motorcycling because I've seen far more metric bikes with common sump systems have problems in the transmission than I have with Harleys. And on a Harley its just a matter of pulling the right side cover off and removing the cassettes where with metrics the engine cases have to be split for repairs. And parts for many of the metrics are made of unobtanium because they were obsolete within one year after production ended and a new model replaced it.

I see you sell Amsoil, which I think is one of the best out there. My dealer carries it on the shelf, in direct competition with the Harley branded oil, because so many people demand it when they get their bike serviced. What I consider to be somewhat unfortunate is that the supplier Harley uses, I don't think, has done anywhere near the research in lubricant technology that others like Amsoil has. I think H-D could stand to update themselves a little in that department.
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Old 10-31-2015, 07:16 AM   #128 (permalink)
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Yes, the 6spd has both types of gears in it. The helical gears impose axial loads on the bearings for the shafts. The spur gears impose radial loads. The spur gears create more noise, but not all that bad in my opinion. The old 5 speeds are all spur gears.

Just about anything that looks like oil will work in these transmissions. They are pretty simple outfits with no synchronizers that require any specific viscosity so as to prevent viscous drag on gear sets. I think the lighter weight oils are better for needle bearings. But then these transmissions don't get used in sub-zero weather, so that's not really an issue either.

I just know that ATF works in them fine because I been using it for thousands of miles with no issues at all. And my old 5 speed clunks when it shifts, and it makes gear noise - but that's the design. I've heard all these claims about super-smooth no clunk shifting and whatnot, and I've just never seen it because it's not the way these transmissions are. They are, however, incredibly tough just about bullet proof gearboxes. Eventually the shift forks will wear on the helical gears because of axial loading. And the drum will wear in all them from repeated cycling. But most of them are in the 150-200,000 mile range before they get to that point and the rebuild is pretty simple and not that expensive.

So I consider them to be one of the better designs in motorcycling because I've seen far more metric bikes with common sump systems have problems in the transmission than I have with Harleys. And on a Harley its just a matter of pulling the right side cover off and removing the cassettes where with metrics the engine cases have to be split for repairs. And parts for many of the metrics are made of unobtanium because they were obsolete within one year after production ended and a new model replaced it.

I see you sell Amsoil, which I think is one of the best out there. My dealer carries it on the shelf, in direct competition with the Harley branded oil, because so many people demand it when they get their bike serviced. What I consider to be somewhat unfortunate is that the supplier Harley uses, I don't think, has done anywhere near the research in lubricant technology that others like Amsoil has. I think H-D could stand to update themselves a little in that department.
Thanks for your insight. In defense of the syn3 HD oil, when it was first introduced Amsoil reversed engineered it, so to speak, to see what it was made of and I was told that it was a very good oil and they didn't skimp on the additive package. That was then and what it is today is anyone's guess, as formulations and suppliers do change from time to time in the relabel make it for me market.
george
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Old 02-29-2016, 12:53 PM   #129 (permalink)
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2007 RG, 103, 204 cams. Engine oil at 5k, primary at 10K and trans at 20k per the manual. After replacing the compensator, inner mainshaft bearing, clutch hub bearing and clutch hub for about $500 just in parts I'd sure like to know that there is a lubricant that works better than 20-50 motor oil. I have run EVO's out past 100,000 miles without ever having any problem with primary or clutch components. I usually used a mix of Tractor hydraulic oil and ATF in the EVO's. At only 60,000 miles on the RG and using a recommended lube certainly didn't protect primary components in my twin cam. Oh well if it goes another 60K, I'll be too old to ride or dead before I dig into it again.
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Old 02-29-2016, 01:13 PM   #130 (permalink)
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....... one fellow told me could probably run on "pee" and still work and I agree as it's just a chain which is usually exposed on chain drive bikes. Thanks for the thoughts....
John
Would probable agree with the urine statement but along with that chair are clutch plates, steels and the every troublesome compensator. I run Amsoil Super Shift ATF cause any of your major clutch manufactures will tell you the same. Piss in it if you want.....

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Old 02-29-2016, 01:22 PM   #131 (permalink)
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I usually used a mix of Tractor hydraulic oil and ATF in the EVO's.
I never thought about using tractor hydraulic oil in there, but that would work fine too. That stuff is formulated for high pressure contact points on gears, as it is used as both hydraulic and transmission/clutch/final drive lubricant in tractors since the 1960's.

It's just a little less viscous than ATF - I think CaseIH HyTran or John Deere Hy-Guard is SAE20 oil. And that oil is not cheap either. Seems to me that CaseIH HyTran is about $80 bucks for a five gallon pail of it, and that's about the smallest container it comes in.
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Old 02-29-2016, 01:28 PM   #132 (permalink)
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2007 RG, 103, 204 cams. Engine oil at 5k, primary at 10K and trans at 20k per the manual. After replacing the compensator, inner mainshaft bearing, clutch hub bearing and clutch hub for about $500 just in parts I'd sure like to know that there is a lubricant that works better than 20-50 motor oil. I have run EVO's out past 100,000 miles without ever having any problem with primary or clutch components. I usually used a mix of Tractor hydraulic oil and ATF in the EVO's. At only 60,000 miles on the RG and using a recommended lube certainly didn't protect primary components in my twin cam. Oh well if it goes another 60K, I'll be too old to ride or dead before I dig into it again.
Why do you think a Lubricant has anything to do with your problem? Did you see abnormal wear? The compentsator is a whole nother problem from day one that they started using them.
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Old 04-18-2016, 08:54 AM   #133 (permalink)
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Good Info-Thanks
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Old 01-29-2018, 08:43 AM   #134 (permalink)
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Thumbs up Thank you.Frenchy

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I've got 77,00 miles in all three boxes with mobil 1 15-50. Thiesons farm supply sells it for $6.47 a quart. Right now till the end of march mobil has a $12.00 rebate for buying 5 or more quarts.

Don't waist your time running around getting separate oils, or your money on their V-Twin oil. Plain and simple you don't need different oils in all three holes. I ride when it's as cold as 38*, my tranny shifts smooth as silk! Buy a oil you can get in any towns parts store, like mobil 1 15-50. It has proven it's self to many who puts it in their Harleys in all three boxes. I get frustrated with my local Friends that waist their money on mobile V-Twin when my bike has proven, and tests have shown there is not enough difference to justify mobil V-Twin. And Mobils web site in Q&A says it's ok to run it in all three boxes,,,,, ok I'm done.
Thank you, that was REALLY helpful.
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