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Old 01-10-2009, 04:47 PM   #46 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by dynarule View Post
The bearing i am talking about is the support bearing behind the clutch basket, the trans shaft. it is lubed by the primary oil.
Thanks for the correction. I thought you were talking about the one coming off the crank sprocket. What is making that bearing go bad? Design flaws?
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Old 01-10-2009, 04:55 PM   #47 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by george douglas View Post
Thanks for the correction. I thought you were talking about the one coming off the crank sprocket. What is making that bearing go bad? Design flaws?
george
Yes it was, there have been many of them go bad on the 06 dyna only(first six speed)and HD sent out letters that says to replace the every 15k but then retracted with another letter saying that it is ok now.When mine was replaced the service guy said that the new bearing had a different part number but the race hd the same number.
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Old 02-21-2009, 07:34 PM   #48 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by george douglas View Post
Geno,
Great post. I couldn't find anything with it that I would disagree with.
george
I could. hehe

Seriously, regarding Type F ATF: Any modern Type F (and most of the major oil manufacturers still make Type F) is going to have virtually all the same additives as Dexron, Mercon, etc. with the exception of friction modifiers. Type F is still going to have anti-foam additives, pour point depresents, dispersants, detergents, and VI improvers. It just won't have friction modifiers like the other fluids.
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Old 02-21-2009, 08:37 PM   #49 (permalink)
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Also, regarding ATF+4 for Chryslers: I wrote an article some time back on ATF+4 for the Allpar.com web site. It is a summary of some of the data contained in SAE paper #982674, which details the development of ATF+4. One of the salient points in the paper is that the frictional characteristics of all Chrysler automatic transmission fluids (ATF+, ATF+2, ATF+3, and ATF+4) are the same as the Dexron II/III spec. It's a popular myth that ATF+4 is a more highly friction modified fluid than Dexron. That just isn't the case.

What Chrysler engineers were trying to address by designing their own ATF (remember, Dexron had been spec'd in Chrysler Torque-Flite transmissions for years) was shear stability and oxidation stability. In the new (early 90s) Chrysler Ultra Drive transmission, the Group I base oils typically used in Dexron fluid would oxidize rapidly and cause severe degradation in performance. With the Type 7176D spec (ATF+2), Chrysler was the first manufacturer to spec Group II base oil for their ATF. And when they introduced Type 9602 (ATF+4), they were the first to specify Group III.

Also, in testing during the development of ATF+4 look at how these modern ATFs did as far as shear stability (viscosity retention):

Dexron III - 40% loss
Mercon V - 19% loss
Type 7176D (ATF+2) - 32% loss
Type 7176E (ATF+3) - 14% loss
Type 9602 (ATF+4) - 10% loss

NB: ATF+3 is nothing but ATF+2 with the shear stable VI improver that Lubrizol developed for the Type 9602 spec. Thus you can see the improvement this VI improver made in shear stability by comparing the viscosity loss percentages of ATF+2 and ATF+3. ATF+4 is the most shear stable ATF currently produced.

So, what does all this have to do with ATF in Harley primaries? Don't shy away from using ATF+4 because you think it's more friction modified than Dexron. It isn't. If your clutch action is good with Dexron, it will be good with ATF+4. But I suspect, a non friction modified ATF like Type F, B&M Trick Shift, or Amsoil Super Shift is the best choice for a Harley primary.

Last edited by Gary7; 02-21-2009 at 09:36 PM.
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Old 02-21-2009, 08:48 PM   #50 (permalink)
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Being somewhat ignorant in this area, let me ask a (dumb)question. How important is the shear and oxidation stability to the performance of a HD clutch? Is there any advantage to using +4 over say a Dextron?

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Old 02-21-2009, 09:04 PM   #51 (permalink)
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Being somewhat ignorant in this area, let me ask a (dumb)question. How important is the shear and oxidation stability to the performance of a HD clutch? Is there any advantage to using +4 over say a Dextron?
Shear stability is pretty important. You've got the clutch and the primary chain that are constantly chewing up the fluid. If the VI improver in the ATF is sub-par, you're going to get a pretty significant loss in viscosity over time. In a 20w50 oil, this isn't all that critical. At operating temp, a 20w50 has a viscosity of about 20 cSt. If you get a 20% drop in vis due to shearing, you've still got an oil that is 16 cSt. But ATF+4 or Dexron is the viscosity of 5w20 oil, and at operating temp its viscosity is about 7 cSt. You don't want much, if any, loss in viscosity with this stuff because you're already starting off very thin.

Bottom line: If you're going to use ATF in the primary, you want to use the best ATF you kind find, which means a synthetic like ATF+4 or Mobil1 or Amsoil. But I suspect, a non friction modified ATF like Type F, B&M Trick Shift, or Amsoil Super Shift is the best choice for a Harley primary.

Last edited by Gary7; 02-21-2009 at 09:35 PM.
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Old 02-22-2009, 03:42 AM   #52 (permalink)
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I understand the need for friction modifiers in limited slip differentials. Question; What is a friction modifier?
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Old 02-22-2009, 09:15 AM   #53 (permalink)
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I understand the need for friction modifiers in limited slip differentials. Question; What is a friction modifier?
Do you mean what does it do, or what is it, as in what type additive is it?
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Old 02-22-2009, 09:45 AM   #54 (permalink)
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I understand the need for friction modifiers in limited slip differentials. Question; What is a friction modifier?
It allows the LS to slip otherwise it would chatter big time every time you went around a corner.
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Old 02-22-2009, 05:41 PM   #55 (permalink)
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I guess I'm trying to ask what it is and how it does it's job.
Thanks.


Thread drift; I put a Detroit Truetrac limited slip in my Ranger. This is a gear on gear, rather than clutched, limited slip differential. It dosen't need friction modifiers and it hooks up hard.
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Old 02-22-2009, 06:04 PM   #56 (permalink)
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I guess I'm trying to ask what it is and how it does it's job.
I think we're getting way off topic, but if you send me a PM I'll try to answer your question.
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Old 02-22-2009, 06:20 PM   #57 (permalink)
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strokerjlk is reading this now saying WTF is this?
I am no expert on ATF so I am only asking.
I read or hear about ATF's effect on clutch and lubrication or primary chain. But no one ever talks about the other very important job of the lube. And that is cooling the stator. I have never ran anything but H-D'S formula + syn 3, Mobil 1syn,Rev tech, Lubricating Engineers (LE) oils in my primary. But after hearing, reading so much positive about the B&M trick shift I want to try it.
I am only concerned about the compatibility with the stators windings and the cooling effect, I would suspect that it would cool as good as the other purpose lubes. But what about the effect on the stator windings?
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Old 02-22-2009, 06:51 PM   #58 (permalink)
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I am only concerned about the compatibility with the stators windings and the cooling effect, I would suspect that it would cool as good as the other purpose lubes. But what about the effect on the stator windings?
A non issue with ATF.

Gear oil, with the sulfur that is typically in it, might be a problem.
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Old 02-22-2009, 09:08 PM   #59 (permalink)
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I understand the need for friction modifiers in limited slip differentials. Question; What is a friction modifier?
Friction modifiers are additives that modify the coefficient of friction of a lubricant to meet certain applications like in wet clutches. They are also sdded to gearlubes for the wet clutch packs of posi-traction differentials. They are also used in motor oils to improve fuel economy. A friction modifier can make things slipperier or not so slippery. One doesn't need to worry about friction modifiers if they are using products that meet the application that they were designed for.
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Old 02-24-2009, 02:34 AM   #60 (permalink)
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ATF in Transmission?

I've never had a post 1950s transmission in any of my Harley motorcycles. I now have a bike with a 2000-2004 Indian five speed that has been modified to electric/kick start. I have been told it was built by Rev Tech(?) and has ATF in it. I can't get to neutral with my foot. I have to kill the motor and play with the shifter with my hand to find it. Shifts very hard & I have never had that problem when using engine oil or gear lube in my other, older, trannies. The two places I have taken it say that it should have ATF in it!?! So--should it be running this stuff & I just need to make some adjustments or am I getting bad info? I have read a lot of the ATF threads, but most of it has to do with the primary & I need to know about the tranny.

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