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Old 01-04-2013, 09:12 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Raked triple trees & neck cups question

If I install 3 degree raked triple trees and 3 degree raked neck cups on a 2008 Fatboy will they equal each other out and retain the factory spec trail measurements? If I extend the fork tubes 2" over in order to bring the bike back to level will that also affect the trail numbers or will that increase trail? I want a little increase in trail because I prefer high speed stability and am willing to sacrifice a little low speed heavy handling to get it.

Last edited by pussywhipped; 01-04-2013 at 09:20 PM. Reason: accuracy
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Old 01-04-2013, 10:52 PM   #2 (permalink)
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Eh Whipped ... damn I have a hard time with yer vtf name .. so Ill call ya Whipped as in Cream.

On your 2008 Fatboy your neck rake as you probably already know is 32* now that is by the OEM Specs

I would venture to say that the specs OEM gives for all softails is 31*-32*s at the neck. I have measures many of the 99-06 softails & they all read the same which tells me that regardless of what they list them at all the welded fixtures accommodate the softail frames in the jig with the same neck brace. It is repetitiously setting all them at the same rake in the same fixture.

I am not saying that they do not have different castings for the neck brace prior to welding but any FXST or any FLSTF is of the same value give or take 1*. All that extra chrome & cow bells is done is for mere cosmetic interpurtation so the buyer gets a different perspective of the front end.
Any FXST can easily become a FLSTF with the different add-ons which the Fat Boy has & it also goes for any Fatboy can easily become a FXST,

The stock FXST is 34* rake. They use a 31* rake at the neck with a 3* raked tree to get to 34*

If you are straddling a stock OEM frame & you try to install a set of 3* Raked Trees with 3* raked cups it "Wont Work". The hour glass neck which the Softail Family has is 6.9 -7.0 long from the top to the bottom. When you talk raked cups they are made to fit that precise measurement. If your trees are already raked at 3* & you try adding raked cups the trees will not fit.
The raked cups protrude outside the 6.90-7.0 neck by .813" which is approx 13/16" ... once you install the raked cups each end of the tree is now .4065 longer than the height of the stock tree.

To get the proper angle of the 3 * trees to fit the tubes will clash! the distance between the upper & Lower trees has increased due to the raked cups which will not match the angle of the tubes in the tree.

Its a trade off... If ya want to increase the rake of your FatBoy & maintain the proper trail, go with the 5* raked cups & a zero* raked tree. You will truely have a rake increase of 5* without effecting the trail.

One should never consider altering the steering geometry without knowing what the trail will be & if you do make any alterations to the triple trees or cups I would always advise that after it is assembled you infact check the trail with a laser to know where your at.
I have witnessed first hand the L@@K on a riders face that altered his front end & to this day will never forget the "Fear of Hell" his face portrayed.

Its not something ya want to FK with unless ya have done it before & have a taste for fear unless of course ya know what yer doin'
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We never even said a word,
We just walked out and got on that bike
And we rolled...
And we rolled...... clean out of sight




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2000 FXST - Carbed

Last edited by Rollmeaway; 01-04-2013 at 10:57 PM.
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Old 01-05-2013, 12:58 AM   #3 (permalink)
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Hi Rollmeaway, You said:

"The stock FXST is 34* rake. They use a 31* rake at the neck with a 3* raked tree to get to 34*. If you are straddling a stock OEM frame & you try to install a set of 3* Raked Trees with 3* raked cups it "Wont Work". The hour glass neck which the Softail Family has is 6.9 -7.0 long from the top to the bottom. When you talk raked cups they are made to fit that precise measurement. If your trees are already raked at 3* & you try adding raked cups the trees will not fit.
The raked cups protrude outside the 6.90-7.0 neck by .813" which is approx 13/16" ... once you install the raked cups each end of the tree is now .4065 longer than the height of the stock tree."


What if I were to use a longer stem in the triple tree along with longer fork tubes. Would that allow it to fit? Would I then be able to use the raked cups? And if that works would I then be able to go with the 5 degree raked triple trees for a sum total of 39-40 degrees of rake? Factory 31-32 in the neck, plus 3 in the neck cups, plus 5 in the trees would equal 39-40 degrees total if my logic is correct. Pardon my ignorance but it seems that trees would cancel rake and with the fork tube extension I would end up with near factory trail figures. I know I probably don't know wtf I'm talking about but it seems to make sense to me in a simplistic way. What am I missing here?

Last edited by pussywhipped; 01-05-2013 at 01:03 AM.
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Old 01-05-2013, 10:01 AM   #4 (permalink)
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Mornin Whipped ...

There is a kit Vulcan engineering sells that has a longer stem when using raked cups. Your on the right track but remember raked tress are used to reduce trail when the neck rake gets out of line or excessive. If rake becomes excessive the highway factor is great it will track in a straight line all day while ya make the coffee but in the city it suck so they use raked trees to help in the reduction of trail while maintaining a safe figure.

If you had a neck rake of say 37-39* you would then measure your trail & bring it back to 5-6" by use of a raked tree. The raked tree is a double edged sword, the more ya go for the look the less trail ya wind up having. Tube length does not increase or decrease trail.

the problem is not the raked trees or the raked cups it is when you try to use them together. By increasing the distance between the upper tree & the lower tree when using raked cups your fork tube angles change from top to bottom trees.

Raked cups are designed to be used with a stock 0* tree, I can appreciate where yer going with the trees & cups.

Look up "joe johns" from vulcanworks check out their site
also heres another site which will help ya out.
http://www.rbracing-rsr.com/forklength2.html

I am not saying to not install a set of raked trees just make sure ya check yer trail before getting on it to ride.
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We never even said a word,
We just walked out and got on that bike
And we rolled...
And we rolled...... clean out of sight




Dare...

2000 FXST - Carbed
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Old 01-05-2013, 12:05 PM   #5 (permalink)
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Rollmeaway, Thanks for giving me more info on the subject. I have been trying to call Vulcan for the last week with no success. They don't answer their phone. Maybe they took a week off for the holidays. I have been having a hard time trying to find some moderate rake for very little money. I even looked at Kraft Tech frames but again no luck. I would want to utilize my own wheel and swing arm and they have one for '87 thru '99 softails but not for 2000 and up. Frustrating. The AME kit is outrageously expensive. Hawg Halters offers an easy cut and weld neck kit but not for softails. Only Bagger-Touring models. Grrrr! I will probably end up sending the frame out for a rake job. Ideally I would want a 2" upstretch, 5" backbone stretch and 39 degrees of rake anyway. I mean if I have to send it out for work I might as well get everything I want right? Anybody know anyone in South Florida that does good work without breaking the bank?
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Old 01-05-2013, 03:51 PM   #6 (permalink)
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[QUOTE=Rollmeaway;2211682]Eh Whipped ... damn I have a hard time with yer vtf name .. so Ill call ya Whipped as in Cream.

Rollmeaway, Regarding my VTF name. While thinking back on my life it seems like so much of my effort has gone toward chasing and pleasing women. My choice of cars, clothes, furnishings, how I act, what I say,where I go, how I would spend my money, etc, etc. The time, money, and effort has been considerable. I even decided on my college based on the fact that FSU used to be a girls school and at that time still had a female to male ratio of 5 to 3. All that time trying to attract a woman, and then not offend her for fear of cutting off my steady supply of p---sy. Biting my tongue when arguing with the wife so as again not to be cut off from you know what. I figure I have spent half my life in that pursuit. If I had spent half that effort towards financial success I would probably be a millionaire by now. Socrates once said that " The unexamined life isn't worth living." While meditating on that thought one day and during a moment of introspection, it hit me. I'm PUSSYWHIPPED!! Now you know.
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Old 01-05-2013, 04:19 PM   #7 (permalink)
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[quote=pussywhipped;2211881]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rollmeaway View Post
Eh Whipped ... damn I have a hard time with yer vtf name .. so Ill call ya Whipped as in Cream.

Rollmeaway, Regarding my VTF name. While thinking back on my life it seems like so much of my effort has gone toward chasing and pleasing women. My choice of cars, clothes, furnishings, how I act, what I say,where I go, how I would spend my money, etc, etc. The time, money, and effort has been considerable. I even decided on my college based on the fact that FSU used to be a girls school and at that time still had a female to male ratio of 5 to 3. All that time trying to attract a woman, and then not offend her for fear of cutting off my steady supply of p---sy. Biting my tongue when arguing with the wife so as again not to be cut off from you know what. I figure I have spent half my life in that pursuit. If I had spent half that effort towards financial success I would probably be a millionaire by now. Socrates once said that " The unexamined life isn't worth living." While meditating on that thought one day and during a moment of introspection, it hit me. I'm PUSSYWHIPPED!! Now you know.
What your saying is what almost all men refrain from admitting to. I can really relate to what you admitted to.

Its security & an endless flow of money ... thats what truley attracts women to men all the while dictating when & where their money tree will be rewarded ... now that just my opinion.
I could tell ya a few but I will hold back on the particulars.

I was in contact with Joe from Vulcan back in late November & RB Racing. All the manufacturers of triple trees are explictit in advising you no more than a 3* tree be used with a stock frame
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We never even said a word,
We just walked out and got on that bike
And we rolled...
And we rolled...... clean out of sight




Dare...

2000 FXST - Carbed
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Old 01-06-2013, 09:41 AM   #8 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pussywhipped View Post
Rollmeaway, Thanks for giving me more info on the subject. I have been trying to call Vulcan for the last week with no success. They don't answer their phone. Maybe they took a week off for the holidays. I have been having a hard time trying to find some moderate rake for very little money. I even looked at Kraft Tech frames but again no luck. I would want to utilize my own wheel and swing arm and they have one for '87 thru '99 softails but not for 2000 and up. Frustrating. The AME kit is outrageously expensive. Hawg Halters offers an easy cut and weld neck kit but not for softails. Only Bagger-Touring models. Grrrr! I will probably end up sending the frame out for a rake job. Ideally I would want a 2" upstretch, 5" backbone stretch and 39 degrees of rake anyway. I mean if I have to send it out for work I might as well get everything I want right? Anybody know anyone in South Florida that does good work without breaking the bank?
I put the AME rake kit on my '93 FXR about 2 years ago. And though I won't disagree with you about it being pricey. The kit is a rock solid extremely well made kit. That gives my scoot excellent highway riding and great around town, with no front wheel flop.

I have a great wrench in Broward county. All American Cycle on Pembroke Rd. in Hollywood. Click image for larger version

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Old 01-07-2013, 12:21 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Hondo & Rollmeaway. Thanks for the info. I'm a trucker and coincidently was on Pines Blvd. in Pembroke Pines 6 hours ago. Came back up the back way on Hwy 27 to Alligator Alley instead of 75 to get back to the left coast where I now live. BTW, counted at least 30 gators sunning themselves on the far side of the canal bordering the Alley on the way back. Escaped from Hialeah many moons ago. Can you say "hasta manana" to the big city? I'm happy to. And I'll add a mucho gusto to it too. Damn, but I miss Cuban coffee though. I brew my own Bustelo at the house because all I can get out here is weak American coffee. Also miss the "pastelitos de guayaba" in a very big way. Although my waistline doesn't miss it! Just tried calling All American Cycle and a recording said they would be out for the holidays until Wednesday. Thanks for the heads up on that. Finally got ahold of Steve at Vulcan this morning and he said that you can't use a raked neck cup and raked triple tree together. He said his 3 degree cups lowered the bike 1 1/2" and you can't use the factory tins or headlight after you install it. He also said that he would do a softail neck rake for, now get this---only $125 bucks!!! Cutting and welding for $125 ? , ya gotta be kidding. Of course that is providing you supply him with the frame so he doesn't have to do any wrenching. But still, what a great price and what a great guy. I could talk to him all day long. We remininsced about the old days and had a great conversation. I love this guy. Oh and Rollmeaway, RE our earlier conversation: The one thing that I always didn't give a sh-t whether my latest squeeze approved of or disapproved of was riding motorcycles. If ya like bikes, fine hop on. Don't like, no problem.... when I get back I'll do the hopping on. If ya ain't there when I get back then it wasn't meant to be. Oh, yeah, as an aside. Did I mention how much I love this forum?
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Old 01-07-2013, 12:43 PM   #10 (permalink)
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Hondo, forgot to mention. Thanks for the info on AME and the pics of your bike. Looks fantastic! How much rake and extension did you go with on your most excellent ride? Also, what size front wheel are you using?
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Old 01-07-2013, 05:29 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Eh Whipped

Sounds like yer havin a good time researchin' & implementing your plan, Vulcan is a good choice at 125.00 each.
If I was going that route I would get the frame raked & rewelded & then use an additional set of raked trees to bring the trail back so its between 5"-6" .
The beauty of cutting the neck is, your doing it the proper, right & safe way rather than trying to achieve a look by installing just a set of raked trees which by themselves reduce your trail.

If you ever get a chance have a look at a Rocker, they use a 36.5 raked frame neck & a 1* raked tree to bring the trail back. Their trail usually runs out at 6.25" which is still getting out there. It will give you a pretty good idea of what those demensions look like finished.
I have also read & heard of Rocker Riders who complain of it's handling abilities in tight areas & that could very well be due to the 6.25" of trail.

If a guy was to use a set of 3* trees with the 37* raked frame neck it would produce a 40* rake which would definitely give him a raked look while at the same time reduce the trail to still a safe number of about 5", that would be my choice,

Your in professional hands with Vulcan, they will help you out with all the #'s & specs, there wont be guessing & bygolly it will be safe.

It will be a pleasure to see what ya wind up with.
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We never even said a word,
We just walked out and got on that bike
And we rolled...
And we rolled...... clean out of sight




Dare...

2000 FXST - Carbed

Last edited by Rollmeaway; 01-07-2013 at 05:31 PM.
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Old 01-07-2013, 07:05 PM   #12 (permalink)
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Hondo, forgot to mention. Thanks for the info on AME and the pics of your bike. Looks fantastic! How much rake and extension did you go with on your most excellent ride? Also, what size front wheel are you using?
whipped,

I got the 18 degree rake kit from AME with 6 inch over stock down tubes. I am running a 21 inch front wheel. Thanks for the compliments and good luck with your project. I would love to see the finished job.

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Old 01-12-2013, 07:09 PM   #13 (permalink)
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Rollmeaway, I tried responding twice to your PM and kept getting an error message stating "recipients not found." Your plans to modify your frame are quite extensive. Please keep me informed on your progress. I am having a difficult time finding anyone that will rake my neck for a reasonable cost in my area. If I have a custom shop here do it they will charge about $500. One shop quoted me $1800 and when I asked why so uch they said it was due to liability issues. I think I am just going to do it the way we did it to my first Harley when I was 18. Simply cut a wedge out of the top of the neck and a slit at the bottom. Then heat everything up with a gas welder and bend out until you have your desired angle. Then take the wedge you cut out of the top and we;d it into the bottom gap. Cut triangular fillets out of 1/4" soft steel plate and weld them on each side of the neck for strength. It was simple, fast, and cheap. Back then we spoke in terms of inches of rake versus degrees. I put a modest 1/2" rake into my Panhead with a 12" over springer and a 21" spoolie front wheel. Handled just fine and was solid as a rock at expressway speeds with a little heaviness in the front end at slow speed and of course a much wider turning diameter but nothing that you didn't get used to very quickly. But you absolutely didn't let anyone else but yourself ride it. That would be an accident waiting to happen due to the change in handling characteristics. I grew up in Miami and we made regular road trips down to Key West and back. My bike was well suited to that type of travel.
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Old 01-12-2013, 08:46 PM   #14 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pussywhipped View Post
Rollmeaway, I tried responding twice to your PM and kept getting an error message stating "recipients not found." Your plans to modify your frame are quite extensive. Please keep me informed on your progress. I am having a difficult time finding anyone that will rake my neck for a reasonable cost in my area. If I have a custom shop here do it they will charge about $500. One shop quoted me $1800 and when I asked why so uch they said it was due to liability issues.

I think I am just going to do it the way we did it to my first Harley when I was 18. Simply cut a wedge out of the top of the neck and a slit at the bottom.

Then heat everything up with a gas welder and bend out until you have your desired angle. Then take the wedge you cut out of the top and we;d it into the bottom gap.

Cut triangular fillets out of 1/4" soft steel plate and weld them on each side of the neck for strength. It was simple, fast, and cheap. Back then we spoke in terms of inches of rake versus degrees. I put a modest 1/2" rake into my Panhead with a 12" over springer and a 21" spoolie front wheel.
Handled just fine and was solid as a rock at expressway speeds with a little heaviness in the front end at slow speed and of course a much wider turning diameter but nothing that you didn't get used to very quickly.

But you absolutely didn't let anyone else but yourself ride it. That would be an accident waiting to happen due to the change in handling characteristics. I grew up in Miami and we made regular road trips down to Key West and back. My bike was well suited to that type of travel.
Eh Wipped,

I am not quite clear on where exactly your speaking of cutting the frame. Are you saying your cutting the neck & leaving the backbone & down tubes as one together? Then altering the neck angle by relieving the top side & the bottom side until you achieve the desired angle, then reinforcing it & welding it back up. That is what I am reading.

Here is a link to a site which may help you out... http://www.chopperhandbook.com/stretch.htm
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We never even said a word,
We just walked out and got on that bike
And we rolled...
And we rolled...... clean out of sight




Dare...

2000 FXST - Carbed

Last edited by Rollmeaway; 01-12-2013 at 08:53 PM. Reason: Additional Info
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Old 03-30-2013, 02:18 AM   #15 (permalink)
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Excuse me if Im going off topic here, but only just...
I want to try a 21" front wheel on my '12FXDC..
But I also want to slam it down both ends about 1 n 1/2 inches
So Iam wondering how that will effect handling
the bigger front wheel will absorb some of the lowering in regards to ground clearance
I dont to want change the rake if I can help it as Im trying to get a shortfront/big wheel look goin on... but if its going to handle like a cat in a bag I may reconsider
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