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Old 03-27-2010, 09:21 PM   #31 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HarleyComforts View Post
Basically, we were subsidizing Union Workers.
The tourpak lock latch on my 07 was mounted upside down. So installed bad, and never looked at.

Then there was the TPS wire that rubbed on the fins. Then bad ground for radio, then bad connector, the rest of it the dealer can't figure out. Some design, some poor assembly.

I've heard that the majority of the Evo design was done by AMF. Probably true. you don't just turn out a new motor over night.
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Old 03-27-2010, 11:07 PM   #32 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by berserker View Post
I've heard that the majority of the Evo design was done by AMF. Probably true.
Not probably, it is true.

http://www.harley-davidson.com/wcm/C...p?locale=en_US

"1981 On February 26, thirteen Harley-Davidson senior executives sign a letter of intent to purchase Harley-Davidson Motor Company from AMF. By mid-June, the buyback is official, and the phrase "The Eagle Soars Alone" becomes a rallying cry."

"1984 Harley-Davidson unveils the 1340cc V²® Evolution® engine on five models including the all-new Softail®. The result of seven years of development, the Evolution engine produces more power at every speed, runs cooler, cleaner and is oil-tight."

Note that seven years of development means the EVO engine development started at least four years prior to the "buyback," and that the majority of it's development was done during the AMF years.
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Old 03-27-2010, 11:38 PM   #33 (permalink)
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AMF was also behind the V4 engined Nova, I've seen pictures of the prototype but I don't think anymore than a handfull were actually built.
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Old 03-28-2010, 11:49 AM   #34 (permalink)
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Everyone talks so big about Harley being around forever blah blah, but they forget the company was bought out once already. Ran poorly maybe close to bankrupcy.

History does tend to repeat itself.

You got to wonder what about Willie, he sure has a flair for decorating.
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Lets not turn on each other, unless we have to.
The only thing that counts in the end is power! Naked merciless force! -Ursus
The Devil made me do it the first time, the second time I did it on my own-Waylon
Helmets are like rubbers you know you should wear one, but its so much better when you don't.-Me
Sometimes I think its a sin, when I feel like I am winning when I am losing again.-GL
2001 FLHR, 98"
2007 FLHTCU
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Old 03-28-2010, 11:11 PM   #35 (permalink)
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Nazzdak is reading this now saying WTF is this?
Over the last six months, this company has spent more than 60 million dollars of its own money buying back 2,408,000 shares of its own stock. It ain't going out of business. Since these shares are retired to treasury, you have an ever decreasing smaller amount of supply in the market, and thus, over time, an ever higher stock price.

We can always speculate as to why the market price is going up or down on any given day, but the net supply of shares IS shrinking. No doubt about it. This is yet another reason why I view buyout rumors with a very, skeptical, eye. For why would I sell my shares back to the motor company, when it is increasing my ownership stake by reducing the overall supply? That does not make any financial sense.

If you owned 2% of the motor company six months ago, today, you own 3% from the buyback alone. Six months from now it should be 4%...etc..etc.

David

Last edited by Nazzdak; 03-28-2010 at 11:15 PM.
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Old 03-29-2010, 08:17 PM   #36 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by NR4TW View Post
No there is a difference between fact and opinion. It is an absolute fact that H-D sought tariff protection. Hey, don't take my word for it, here is what the H-D website says:

"1983 Harley-Davidson successfully petitions the International Trade Commission (ITC) for tariff relief, which is granted April 1, 1983. The tariff, scheduled to end five years later, is placed on all imported Japanese motorcycles 700cc or larger as a response to Japanese motorcycle manufacturers stockpiling inventories of unsold motorcycles in the United States."

http://www.harley-davidson.com/wcm/C...p?locale=en_US

It's not a matter of opinion, it's a matter of absolute fact that the ITC put the tariffs in place because that's what H-D wanted, asked for, and got.

Rather than compete in the free market H-D enjoyed tariff protection for more than three years. Again, don't take my word for it, here is what the H-D website says:

"1987 Harley-Davidson makes both business and American history. H-D petitions the International Trade Commission for early termination of the five-year tariffs on heavyweight motorcycles. In effect, the move demonstrated confidence in H-D's ability to compete in the marketplace."

So the next time you want to spout off about facts v. opinion maybe you should actually learn the facts.
Spout off?

Fact is the tarriffs existed, but then you said:

"It was one of the most "un-American" things a company could do. Rather than expressing pride in H-D for asking that the tariffs be lifted early, anyone who is a "fan" of H-D should be expressing shame that they sought tariff protection in the first place.

That is not a fact, only your opinion.

Just because I don`t agree with you does not mean I am 'Spouting Off".

As I said before, the Foreign manufacturers were dumping motorcycles, steel and machinery into the US at below cost prices to drive the American companies out of business, maybe you think it was Un-American to protect those jobs, but I do not agree. But that is just my opinion.
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Old 03-29-2010, 08:30 PM   #37 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by berserker View Post
Everyone talks so big about Harley being around forever blah blah, but they forget the company was bought out once already. Ran poorly maybe close to bankrupcy.

History does tend to repeat itself.

You got to wonder what about Willie, he sure has a flair for decorating.
Bought out twice.
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Old 03-29-2010, 09:55 PM   #38 (permalink)
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I think the MoCo, just go too illusioned just like the rest of corporate America, in thinking the party could not end. Let's face it, they had a very good run, but times and the newer generation don't have the same wants and needs and so HD needs to redesign itself to what is realistic in terms of customers ( who enjoy their product) and the types of motorcyles sought after and at what price.

I like a few of their bikes compared to a few years back, but, they need to rethink what they are attempting to bring to market. The Vrod, Rocker sport bikes and a few high dollar SE were poor decisions imho.

The competition has bigger engines and cost less, ( guess that argument is futile here) so decisions need to be made.

I believe the prior CEO was a disaster and only time will tell if this nw fellow has any vision, but a smaller market is what is facing many companies HD included.

The Davidson family could do a better PR on what their putting out, but , I doubt it,

Life today, is not the fun it used to be and that plays a major part in it. But I hope it does change back. Fewer HDs to customers who wants one, is not all bad.
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Old 03-29-2010, 10:30 PM   #39 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nazzdak View Post
Over the last six months, this company has spent more than 60 million dollars of its own money buying back 2,408,000 shares of its own stock. It ain't going out of business. Since these shares are retired to treasury, you have an ever decreasing smaller amount of supply in the market, and thus, over time, an ever higher stock price.

We can always speculate as to why the market price is going up or down on any given day, but the net supply of shares IS shrinking. No doubt about it. This is yet another reason why I view buyout rumors with a very, skeptical, eye. For why would I sell my shares back to the motor company, when it is increasing my ownership stake by reducing the overall supply? That does not make any financial sense.

If you owned 2% of the motor company six months ago, today, you own 3% from the buyback alone. Six months from now it should be 4%...etc..etc.

David
Wow. Why doesn't everyone get rich in the stock market?
__________________
Lets not turn on each other, unless we have to.
The only thing that counts in the end is power! Naked merciless force! -Ursus
The Devil made me do it the first time, the second time I did it on my own-Waylon
Helmets are like rubbers you know you should wear one, but its so much better when you don't.-Me
Sometimes I think its a sin, when I feel like I am winning when I am losing again.-GL
2001 FLHR, 98"
2007 FLHTCU
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Old 03-30-2010, 03:10 AM   #40 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by berserker View Post
Wow. Why doesn't everyone get rich in the stock market?
I have often wondered the very same thing.

This stock is up 2,832% over the last 24 years, and climbing. A mere 100 dollars invested at Harley's initial public offering in 1986 has turned into more than 28,000 dollars today. More than enough to buy a new bike. Thus, the effect of share repurchases, when measured over a long period of time, is quite exponential.

Unfortunately, in between 1986, and today, we've had a 26% one day market crash in 1987, three recessions, 1990-91, 2001-02, 2008-09, the greatest surprise attack since December 7th, 1941, 9/11/2001, three wars, and five bear markets. Thus, more than anything else, it took faith in the motor company to actually GET this return, which, if you've been reading these posts, is something most people don't have.

This is yet another reason why, in spite of overwhelming odds, a mere 3% of the population controls a whopping 77% of the wealth in this country.

David
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Old 03-30-2010, 03:24 AM   #41 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by highrider View Post
I think the MoCo, just go too illusioned just like the rest of corporate America, in thinking the party could not end. Let's face it, they had a very good run, but times and the newer generation don't have the same wants and needs and so HD needs to redesign itself to what is realistic in terms of customers ( who enjoy their product) and the types of motorcyles sought after and at what price.

I like a few of their bikes compared to a few years back, but, they need to rethink what they are attempting to bring to market. The Vrod, Rocker sport bikes and a few high dollar SE were poor decisions imho.

The competition has bigger engines and cost less, ( guess that argument is futile here) so decisions need to be made.

I believe the prior CEO was a disaster and only time will tell if this nw fellow has any vision, but a smaller market is what is facing many companies HD included.

The Davidson family could do a better PR on what their putting out, but , I doubt it,

Life today, is not the fun it used to be and that plays a major part in it. But I hope it does change back. Fewer HDs to customers who wants one, is not all bad.
Wow. Just Unbelievable.

The prior CEO , who by the way, put more than 40 years in at the motor company, worked his way all the way up from a freaking janitor, and turned a 10,000 dollar investment at the company's IPO, into more than 809,000 today, was a disaster? Seriously? To make such a statement says way more about you than him.

David
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Old 04-06-2010, 08:23 PM   #42 (permalink)
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These are the same folks who complained about HD's "Greed" in maintaining huge cash reserves, the same reserves that enabled it to get thru the deepest part of the recession.
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Old 04-06-2010, 10:03 PM   #43 (permalink)
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True, but if you see the tariffs that get slapped on Harleys and other US made stuff around the world including Japan you would be pissed. Free trade is a myth and we are getting our ass kicked, we need recipical trade rules. If you hit my stuff with a 25% tariff we will do same in kind. Union Management argument is secondary to this, no company = no union and no management.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NR4TW View Post
Yeah, H-D asked for the tariffs to be lifted early. However, that doesn't change the absolute fact that H-D aggressively sought, and enjoyed the benefit of, those tariffs, rather than compete in the market. It was one of the most "un-American" things a company could do. Rather than expressing pride in H-D for asking that the tariffs be lifted early, anyone who is a "fan" of H-D should be expressing shame that they sought tariff protection in the first place.
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Old 04-20-2010, 01:12 PM   #44 (permalink)
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AMF supplied the funding for the development of the EVO Motor, only problem is they never put a patten on that motor, hence, aftermarket motors. I think, back then, the bikes were bad due to bad assembley, no one liked working there according to friends who worked there.
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Old 04-20-2010, 01:46 PM   #45 (permalink)
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My father worked for AMF/HD during that period. He was an engineer for AMF and was asked to work with the staff at HD. They got along fine, made many changes to the facilities, assembly lines and began slimming down the old methods of manufacture. I do not ever recall him having any cross words about HD or the people that he worked with. Damn shame these unfounded stories have become so commonplace. AMF brought HD out of the dark ages, put the company on it's feet and let it start in again. The name of the company is 'American Machine and Foundry' - one of the best and kindest companies on the planet! My dad is now 86 and still sharp as a tack. He remembers those times and tells it straight.

Bill C.
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