Excessive Oil Consumption? : V-Twin Forum: Harley Davidson Forums
» Sponsors

» Insurance
Go Back   V-Twin Forum : Harley-Davidson Motorcycle Forums > V-Twin Forum > V-Twin Forum General Harley Talk
New User? Register Forgot Password

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 06-14-2007, 11:53 AM   #1 (permalink)
IronButt
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Indiana
Posts: 179
dusty67 wants to know Dino or Syn?
Excessive Oil Consumption?

Had the dealer do the 1000 mile service and put HD Syn oil in all three holes. At 4000 miles the oil was a quart low so I called the to find out why. I took the DWG in today and was told that HD allows a quart per 1200 miles to be acceptable. I said WTF! You have to be kidding! That would be adding 2 extra quarts between changes and it would be low going to the change for the last 1500 miles. It is not dripping or showing any visible smoke. Any thoughts on this? Thanks!
__________________
Never read the fine print. There ain't no way you're going to like it.
dusty67 is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Old 06-14-2007, 12:18 PM   #2 (permalink)
Premium Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Nevada
Posts: 3,006
nvsteve wants to know Dino or Syn?
My 03 and 07 use no measureable amount of oil between changes.
What year is your bike? 05's had an issue.
nvsteve is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 06-14-2007, 01:01 PM   #3 (permalink)
IronButt
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Indiana
Posts: 179
dusty67 wants to know Dino or Syn?
gulp ..... 05, what issue?
__________________
Never read the fine print. There ain't no way you're going to like it.
dusty67 is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 06-14-2007, 01:13 PM   #4 (permalink)
Premium Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Vermont
Posts: 5,201
rickr01 wants to know Dino or Syn?
Quote:
Originally Posted by dusty67
gulp ..... 05, what issue?

Valve seals and Harley knows it. No recall however just a TSB for those that complain. Most dealers have established a quart in 1200 miles as the bench mark, but most also know it's a crock. You should be able to find a dealer that will help out but it will be a lot of foot work. Tell em it uses quart and half to two in 1200 miles depending on temps. Good Luck! Even if you end up not getting them to fix it, it's worth doing yourself. It's not a huge job, but not really a small deal either.
rickr01 is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 06-14-2007, 01:18 PM   #5 (permalink)
Banned
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Santa Barbara
Posts: 2,162
tireater wants to know where he is and how he got here
They went out on my 05 Elec Glide...I thought it was dynoed too lean...you will foul plugs as they go out....
tireater is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 06-14-2007, 03:49 PM   #6 (permalink)
IronButt
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Blue Ridge, NC
Posts: 290
EZ2rider wants to know Dino or Syn?
Maybe this will help..........................................

August 10, 2005
Reference: Memo from H-D to dealers.

Diagnosing Oil Consumption **BE AWARE, NOTICE WHERE THEY'RE GOING WITH THESE SUGGESTIONS!!

(also posted in tech tips)
There has been a rise in oil consumption complaints on 2005 – 06 model year vehicles.
The intent of this Tech Tip is to help you determine if there is an actual oil consumption
issue and more accurately diagnose the root cause.
1. First, determine if there is excessive oil consumption by analyzing the customer
complaint and vehicle condition.
• Many times fuel delivery related issues cause smoking complaints and may even
gas wash cylinders leading customers to believe they have an "oil burner" on their
hands.
• Is the vehicle modified and what is its state of tune?
• Does the EFI calibration match the actual components on the vehicle?
• Is there fuel stand off in the air cleaner or manifold?
2. What is excessive consumption?
• Customers may not realize that all engines have some normal rate of oil
consumption, and air cooled engines are more prone to use some oil in the course
of normal operation. It would not be unusual for a Twin Cam engine to use one
quart of oil in 1500 miles or a middleweight powertrain to use one quart of oil in
1000 miles.
• Oil consumption is impacted by engine condition, mileage, duty cycle (how the
vehicle is operated and in what environmental conditions), and accessories.
• Is the vehicle through its break-in period? Remember rings must seat before they
will begin to seal the cylinder to piston clearance.
• After a discussion with the customer on the complaint and a brief inspection of the
vehicle you should be able to determine if you a dealing with a rich condition, oil
consumption complaint, or customer misperceptions.
3. Determine the real rate of consumption.
• To determine the rate of oil consumption bring the oil level to the full line following
the "Checking With Warm Engine" procedures outlined in the service manual and
tape the filler neck closed.
• Have the customer ride the vehicle and inspect the level at 500-mile intervals to
determine the actual rate of consumption. Be careful not to overfill the tank, as that
will provide a false indication of consumption.
• If the rate of consumption exceeds the norm, you will need to review duty cycle with
the customer and then begin your inspection of the engine's state-of-tune
accordingly.
August 10, 2005
4. Verify the system before you tear it down.
• Don't overlook the obvious items before disassembly. How are the oil hoses (tight
clamps, routings, etc.)?
• Verify breather operation, this might be a carry-over situation. If you blow lightly into
the breather snorkels, there should be some resistance if the umbrella valves are
closing properly.
• Verify oil pressure and oil return functions. You might be dealing with an oiling
system issue and/or a wet-sumped lower end.
• Take a compression reading and perform a leakdown test. Remember to write down
the numbers, Technical Service is sure to ask for them.
• If leak down exceeds 10% determine where it is leaking by. Into the lower end, out
the exhaust or intake port, or through a head gasket?
5. Now begin your disassembly based on your findings, and keep both eyes open
as you take things apart for clues to the root cause.
• If the leakage was primarily into the crankcase, then you are chasing a piston to
cylinder sealing issues. To rule out a barreled or tapered cylinder re-check leak
down in three places (top - middle - bottom) in the stroke once the rocker arm
support plate is removed.
�� By the way how did those umbrellas look, and was the rocker box fairly well
scavenged? No clogged return passages right? No signs of leakage at the head
gasket oil returns? Good gasket surfaces?
�� Check the piston crown for carbon build up. Washed areas on the edges of the
piston crown are a good indication of an "oil pumper" (bad rings or piston to
cylinder fit). Solid carbon build up across the piston crown generally indicated it
is coming from above.
�� With the cylinders off you will be able to more closely examine (and take note of)
ring end gap locations. Do they match the service manual recommendations or
are they lined up? Also, check the second compression ring, also called the
middle or scraper ring, installation. The "dot" should face up, but even more
important the outer bevel slants toward the piston and it has a slight chamfer on
the ID that goes to the bottom to allow it to function properly. It is rare but
sometimes the "dot" is up and ring's taper face is wrong.
�� While you are looking at the rings check their wear patterns. A ring that is over
spread or twisted during installation will not seal properly.
• Leak down past the valves and into the ports requires you inspect them for bad
seats and bent stems, or you may find carbon built up to the point they just were not
able to seal the combustion chamber.
�� Heavily carbon’ed valves and oil in the intake or exhaust ports (you did
remember to take note of that right?) are indications of leaking valve seals.
�� It also pays to look for the unusual, like leakage between the valve guide and the
cylinder head. Are the guides loose? Was the head's guide bore scored or
damaged during guide installation? This can sometimes be indicated by
unusually clean or unusually golden patches in specific spots around the guide.
The same is true if there is actual porosity in the head.
August 10, 2005
Valve Seal Updates
• 2005 models and early production 2006 vehicles use a one-piece valve seal and
lower spring seat design (p/n 18094-02) that can cause oil leakage between the
guide and the seal when side loaded or miss-installed. These can be identified by
the silver seal ring and black rubber material.
• A new version one-piece valve seal and lower spring seat design (p/n 18094-02A) is
being implemented into service parts to improve sealing properties and minimize
installation issues.
• The first batch of this new seal can be identified by a green seal ring as shown
below. Towards the end of the month 18094-02A seal kits will change to an orange
colored rubber material to improve visual identification of the new parts.
• Twin Cam 88/88B production will be moving to this design in the near future with
middle-weight powertrain and service parts to follow shortly thereafter.
• Please utilize this new design during any future top end services.
Warranty and Service Procedures
• Any individual 18094-02 valve seals in your inventory may be used on Middle-Weight
Powertrain repairs.
• Current engine gasket kits may be used on 2004 - 2006 Sportster and 2003 - 2006
Buell engines.
• Current gasket kits (top end p/n 17052-99B and engine p/n 17053-99A) may also be
used on 2004 and earlier Twin Cam 88/88B engines without any special steps.
• When using current gasket kits (top end p/n 17052-99B and engine p/n 17053-99A) on
2005 and 2006 Twin Cam 88/88B models discard the 18094-02 valve seals included
and use part number 18094-02A in their place, and the included seal protector during
installation.
• For warranty repairs that involve the use of these engine gasket kits (p/n 17052-99B &
17053-99A), you may also claim 1 valve seal kit p/n 18094-02A as part of the repair.
These additional parts will only be allowed on MC warranty claims filed against your
existing inventory of gasket kits used to repair 2005-2006 Big Twins.
• Future kits will have the new valve seals included so additional parts should not be listed
on warranty claims.
18094-02A Valve Seal Identification

EZ
EZ2rider is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 06-14-2007, 03:52 PM   #7 (permalink)
VTF Site Sponsor
 
springer-'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Maine
Posts: 9,962
springer- is still riding a stock bike springer- is still riding a stock bike
This might help explain it ... http://www.v-twinforum.com/forums/sh...ad.php?t=63946
__________________
What do I know, I ride a Shovel


Check out Ride of the Month






207-621-8089
springer- is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 06-14-2007, 05:16 PM   #8 (permalink)
Seasoned Rider
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 75
Ski5844 wants to know Dino or Syn?
I had the same problem on my 05 EG. I took it to the dealer and and told them about it. When I pulled the plug the rear plug was all fouled. It look like the stuff was caked on it. They replaced the front and rear valve guide seals and the problem was fixed. Using that much oil is not normal.
Ski5844 is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 06-14-2007, 05:32 PM   #9 (permalink)
Cabo Wabo '06
 
namooz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Norman, Okla.
Posts: 583
namooz wants to know Dino or Syn?
oil

If it is an '05, just take it in and act like it's a no brainer that they should fix it. When I called in, I just mentioned that I had the dreaded '05 oil seal leak and you can fix that, right? And there's no charge, right? Right. You should be ok.
__________________
05' Deluxe EFI/BC Pearl
95" KB 374 domed pistons (10.8 comp.-215 HCP)
.030" commetic/.035" quench
HD cyl's .001" piston fit
06' modded heads
B Diamond high lift springs
TW55 chain drive cams
S&S adj. pushrods
Limiters
Barnett heavy clutch diaphram spring
Hi comp A Balls starter
Rivera 10/84 Ring gear
polished TB/manifold
Doherty w/Power Vents
Pro Pipe HS header w/Cycle Shack Rocket tip muff.
PCIII & Dyno
Jagg oil cooler
92HP/99TQ
namooz is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 06-14-2007, 06:33 PM   #10 (permalink)
la9
IronButt
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: ohio
Posts: 597
la9 wants to know Dino or Syn?
Quote:
just take it in and act like it's a no brainer that they should fix it. When I called in, I just mentioned that I had the dreaded '05 oil seal leak and you can fix that, right? And there's no charge, right? Right. You should be ok.
Exaclty what he said, otherwise you are looking to get the run around.
la9 is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 06-14-2007, 09:13 PM   #11 (permalink)
IronButt
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: SoCal
Posts: 190
GaryInSanDiego wants to know Dino or Syn?
Ditto

My 05 used oil, and the dealer said some of the production runs had bad valve seals and would be repaired under warranty. Both plugs fouled and had oil residue inside the tailpipe. As someone else said, this is very well known by dealers, and they should replace them for free. Instead of new seals, I went with a set of SE performance heads, and they gave me credit for what it would have cost to replace the seals in the stock heads. No noticable oil consumption since, and I'm really happy with the SE heads. BTW, one quart per 1200 miles is absurd. One quart per 12,000 might be OK.

Gary
GaryInSanDiego is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 06-14-2007, 09:42 PM   #12 (permalink)
Free agent
 
chrt396's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Florida
Posts: 795
chrt396 wants to know Dino or Syn?
There is a two year warranty!! HD will probably NOT cover the fix if you bought it over 24 months ago. I doubt that the MOCO will bend, but all you have to stand on is that you don't ride that much and never noticed it until you were made aware that there was a know issue from a forum and that the dealer was telling you that the problem was normal. Good luck!! I hope you do a good job talking!
chrt396 is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 06-14-2007, 10:14 PM   #13 (permalink)
DILLIGAF
 
berserker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Straight jacket memories and sedative highs
Posts: 17,856
berserker is still riding a stock bike berserker is still riding a stock bike
In my expereince quart for 1200 miles is to much. Before and after, my build. I go through around a quart, 3k miles. More so riding hard on the interstate. Not so much around town.
__________________
Lets not turn on each other, unless we have to.
The only thing that counts in the end is power! Naked merciless force! -Ursus
The Devil made me do it the first time, the second time I did it on my own-Waylon
Helmets are like rubbers you know you should wear one, but its so much better when you don't.-Me
Sometimes I think its a sin, when I feel like I am winning when I am losing again.-GL
2001 FLHR, 98"
2007 FLHTCU
berserker is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 06-15-2007, 04:57 AM   #14 (permalink)
Lifetime Premium
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: louisiana
Posts: 11,928
claydbal is reading this now saying WTF is this?
recently did a 96 to 103 build. the heads had the old seals and were obviously leaking at the intake valves. tops of pistons showed oily.

the heads were marked 06 and bike was one of the early 07 fxdwg. i couldnt believe they had not updated the seals on the new bike.
claydbal is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 06-15-2007, 05:17 AM   #15 (permalink)
IronButt
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Indiana
Posts: 179
dusty67 wants to know Dino or Syn?
They topped it off and I am to monitor the use for the next 500 miles. It then goes in for the 5000 mile service and monitor some more. They didn't mention the "issue" with the 05 valve seals but aren't trying to get out of anything either. I did purchase the extended warranty.
__________________
Never read the fine print. There ain't no way you're going to like it.
dusty67 is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the V-Twin Forum : Harley-Davidson Motorcycle Forums forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself. WE WILL SEND A CONFIRMATION EMAIL TO THE ADDRESS YOU PROVIDE. If the email address is NOT VALID, you will not be given access to the system!
Email Address:

Log-in

Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.



Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are On


Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v3.2.2

All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:24 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Content Relevant URLs by vBSEO 3.6.0
(C)2001-2012 V-twinForum.com All Rights Reserved (C)2001- V-twinForum.com All Rights Reserved
Motorcycle News, Videos and Reviews
Honda Grom Forum Harley Davidson Forum Honda 600RR Kawasaki Forum Yamaha R6 Forum Yamaha FZ-09 Forum
1199 Panigale Forum Roadglide Forum Honda CBR1000 Forum Vulcan Forum Yamaha R1 Forum Yamaha R3 Forum
Ducati Monster Forum Harley Forums Honda CBR250R Forum ZX10R Forum Star Raider Forum Yamaha Viking Forum
Suzuki GSXR Forum V-Rod Forums Honda Shadow Forum Kawasaki Motorcycle Forum Star Warrior Forum KTM Duke 390 Forum
SV650 Forum BMW S1000RR Forum Honda Fury Forum Kawasaki Versys Forum Drag Racing Forum Ducati 899 Panigale Forum
Suzuki V-Strom BMW K1600 Triumph Forum Victory Forums Sportbikes BMW NineT Forum
Volusia Forum BMW F800 Forum Triumph 675 Forum MV Agusta Forum HD Street Forum Suzuki GW250 Forum
Yamaha Motorcycles Victory Gunner Forum Honda Vultus Forum HD LiveWire Forum Ninja H2 Forum Ducati Scrambler Forum