Tuned Bike????????????

[ceraaa42]

Originally Posted by hardluk1

After talking to dynojet and one of there tech's 12 to 14 WOT and a total of 4 to 5 in each gear at part throttle is what should be need so like a said be fore 60 + is to much for a street motor if the tech is up to speed and the tuner should know what he is working with ,a build sheet. and if a shop that builds and dynos should know what they need to be close. Carbs don't need near the work to get right. And i am not talking about WOT.only.

I think I see what's being said here; you can most likely get the fuel correct in this given amount of runs.

Question; Should the timing be worked with to see where it makes the best performance? Or just take it as it is.

I think if you're happy to pay $250 to $300 for a good running bike, fine. You want the max performance I think it'll take more work, more runs and more money to get it.

Chris

[baggersport]

A common stage 1 or 2 type mod shouldn't take many hours to tune. Most tuners should have a library of maps for these. It's the non-common build which will require the expertise to extract good power and street manners. Those that have gone beyond the common build (dealer type), are the ones that will spend the most time on the dyno.




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[SEDELUXE]

Originally Posted by YankeeBob

I respectfully disagree George. If I pay a tuner to create a map for me, its mine. He can keep a copy and do with it as he pleases. But I sure as fukk am getting a copy of what I paid for!!

well Bob you and i have read the posts and i have seen it first hand about the maps but thats the way it is for some business. i have also herd from guys right here in Jersey that they paid for a tune , dyno time , and 25 dollars extra for a copy of the map. total cost ranges from 250-650 for a dyno tune around here.

Originally Posted by Bruce Woltz

"carb guys will be $hit out of luck. "

Why cuz the tuners won't want to get their hands dirty? Bruce

Bruce
they wont know how .....

[SEDELUXE]

Originally Posted by baggersport

A common stage 1 or 2 type mod shouldn't take many hours to tune. Most tuners should have a library of maps for these. It's the non-common build which will require the expertise to extract good power and street manners. Those that have gone beyond the common build (dealer type), are the ones that will spend the most time on the dyno.




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now with that being said should the tune cost less just because the tuner did not have to spend as much time on it...
imo no they had to spend the time before creating the map in the first place ..am i wrong.

[Colonel Sanders]

Glad I'm carb'd.

[ceraaa42]

Originally Posted by SEDELUXE

now with that being said should the tune cost less just because the tuner did not have to spend as much time on it...
imo no they had to spend the time before creating the map in the first place ..am i wrong.

Lets see, they were paid full bore the first time around, so I guess it's a real nice windfall for each bike that comes close to the previously made map. Then they just tweak it to make it work.

Example; here we have a well named dealer in this area, they charge $435 for each dyno tune they do based at 3.5 hours@$125 per. Each one of mine has taken about two hours (3 done). Heck of a deal $217.50 per hour.

Chris

[baggersport]

Originally Posted by SEDELUXE

now with that being said should the tune cost less just because the tuner did not have to spend as much time on it...
imo no they had to spend the time before creating the map in the first place ..am i wrong.

I can only speak for myself. Typically, ya lose money on the "scratch tune"....making it up on the future tunes that can use that map to start with. Even when it's close, still takes a few hours to hit all the cells for readings. Some scratch tunes can take quite a few hours (days). We flat rate charge for these and I can gaurantee that we're not making any money doing them. Keep in mind the overhead. Along with the electricity that is consumed, there's the building, computers and a $30k+ dynomometer.




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[springer-]

IMO, creating the map in the first place is only a small part of the cost. It is what allows us to keep the costs down for everyone. When I say to keep the cost down I mean to a flat rate tune regardless of build. So far we have been able to maintain that, including the "one off" builds that take much longer.

The cost that people don't always consider is the initial investment, electricity, building, insurance, etc. etc. (overhead).

We also incur ongoing expenses to maintain a "state of the art" system. It would be nice if all we had to worry about was the labor involved or the time to create 1 map that worked for many. Instead, for example, we are looking at a $10,000 investment for upgrades next spring to a $30,000 dyno that is only 2 years old. We don't have to upgrade anything but to stay in front of the curve it costs money. By the time you figure all the overhead, investments and limited tuning season here in Maine, it will be 5 years before we start to get out of the red and into the black. In the mean time we still have to eat. Is it a windfall because one bike took a little less time than another? Hardly. The only advantage we have in this area is we do it because we like too. We didn't have to turn a profit from day one or make the payment every month. It is not a sink or swim situation for us.

What do we supply? We supply the final map with every tune, if desired. Some don't want it if you can believe that !! We supply dyno sheets, data printouts, data runs and anything else a customer asks for, within reason. IMO, that is what they are paying for and when done the bonus is the bike is tuned too.

How many runs does it take to tune a bike? There is no correct answer. IMO, anyone that tells you flat out it takes X number of runs is limited in their thinking to only what they may know or be used to.

First what is a run? Is it a WOT run from 1500-6500 RPM? Is it a 10% throttle run at only 1500 RPM? Is it a 2,5,7,10,15,20,25,30,40,60,80,100% throttle check at 1500 RPM? Is it a run to do the same at 1750 RPM as well? Is it one run if I did 1500 and 1750 at all those throttle positions? Is it one run if I did it at 1500 and checked front and rear cylinder. What if I did front and rear cylinder at 1500 and 1750, is that 1 or 2 runs now? Is a run something that can be printed on a graph? Is it a run if it can't be printed on a graph? So I ask you what is a RUN?? What constitutes a RUN?

All the above are "runs" so what does it mean to say you have to have 50 runs to tune a bike? Can it be tuned in 20? Does it have to be over 100? There is NO correct answer to that question. I can do a complete custom map including AFR tables, VE front and rear tables, front and rear timing tables, decel, accel etc. in 4 runs. How is that possible? We can record enough data in 1 run to know the entire state of a tune in a bike. That run would take us over an hour to complete. It would check virtually every available throttle/RPM position in the map. So 4 "runs" may take 4-5 hours not to mention the time in between making changes.

Now understand that I can also check just the 10% throttle position at 1500 RPM for the front cylinder and call it a "run" if I want to. Then I would need to do over 250 runs to obtain the same amount of data I can do in 1 run.

Same question, how many runs does it take to tune a bike? What constitutes a run? It is way too vague of a question to be able to answer with a simple number. I can tune a bike completely in 4 runs, I don't. I can tune a bike completing in 400 runs, I don't. They would however accomplish the same exact tune when I was done because it would cover all the available areas of the map in all throttle/RPM positions. That is the goal. Question, How many runs does it take us to tune a bike. Answer, however many we feel is required for that particular bike. Different tires, different tire temps, different builds, different exhausts, different tuning conditions, different gas readings, different days, they all factor in. It could be 10 runs, it could be 25 runs each run is different and not comparable to any other "run" on any other dyno or any other bike. Some bikes need minor tweaking of a base map to be fully tuned while others need considerably more attention.

The ultimate goal is a properly tuned bike, not how many runs it took. Subjecting EVERYONE to the same criteria without knowing the specifics is wrong IMO. Can you call 12 different home builders and simply ask "How much will it cost to build a 5 room house?" and then make an informed choice based on a simple answer? No because there are too many variables. One may answer $150,000 and another $1.5 million. Which is right?

[springer-]

Originally Posted by baggersport

I can only speak for myself. Typically, ya lose money on the "scratch tune"....making it up on the future tunes that can use that map to start with. Even when it's close, still takes a few hours to hit all the cells for readings. Some scratch tunes can take quite a few hours (days). We flat rate charge for these and I can gaurantee that we're not making any money doing them. Keep in mind the overhead. Along with the electricity that is consumed, there's the building, computers and a $30k+ dynomometer.

Oh sure ... post the short and sweet version while i'm typing ...

[baggersport]

Originally Posted by springer-

Oh sure ... post the short and sweet version while i'm typing ...

I'm saving my hands for twistin the throttle.




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[SEDELUXE]

Thats my point making a map from scratch can sometimes take up to a week. now i dont mean a stedy week working on 1 bike but there are going top be times when ya cant tune, and work on other things. I know some guys only tune in the morning and when it gets too hot in the afternoon will not tune. when it cools down at nite they will go at it for a few more hrs .
when a tuner creates a map for a build you are paying him for his knowledge to do that.
he keeps a copy and if another customer comes in with a similar build he uses it to get started. still has to run thru a check list to get to the final tune done so maybe not as many runs were done but the end result is the same a good running bike. so in my opinion YES the tuner should receive full payment for the tune.

[BVBOB]

Just a small thing to add, the Dynojet dyno software counts each run every time you hit the button on the dongle and saves it under that number, so, lets say for example, I am getting ready to do a run that the software automatically starts and stops by engine rpm, but without thinking I blip the throttle a little before putting the bike in gear, the screen says "Sampling" so I have to restart, hey, I just gained another number in the total amount of runs, does it make the tune better? not a chance, another major factor in the number of runs is the ability to tune both cylinders simultaneously. This will not cut the total number in half by any means but it will cut it down substantially. Also, having some great timing maps that you know will work with a given compression ratio etc. will help greatly in the time it takes to do a tune. I'm still pretty green at this whole thing but I learn something new everytime I roll another bike on the dyno, they are like your kids, every one is just a little different even if they were made with the same recipe but you gotta give em all the same amount of "TLC"

[SEDELUXE]

Originally Posted by BVBOB

Just a small thing to add, the Dynojet dyno software counts each run every time you hit the button on the dongle and saves it under that number, so, lets say for example, I am getting ready to do a run that the software automatically starts and stops by engine rpm, but without thinking I blip the throttle a little before putting the bike in gear, the screen says "Sampling" so I have to restart, hey, I just gained another number in the total amount of runs, does it make the tune better? not a chance, another major factor in the number of runs is the ability to tune both cylinders simultaneously. This will not cut the total number in half by any means but it will cut it down substantially. Also, having some great timing maps that you know will work with a given compression ratio etc. will help greatly in the time it takes to do a tune. I'm still pretty green at this whole thing but I learn something new everytime I roll another bike on the dyno, they are like your kids, every one is just a little different even if they were made with the same recipe but you gotta give em all the same amount of "TLC"

Bob , Bean , and Springer how many times have you put a bike on the dyno for just a tune and have found problems with the build and had to fix it?????

[BVBOB]

Originally Posted by SEDELUXE

Bob , Bean , and Springer how many times have you put a bike on the dyno for just a tune and have found problems with the build and had to fix it?????

Hmm, had a pushrod come loose when I was about half done with a tune once if that qualifies, Had a plug wire bad on an 04 RK last weekend that was arcing all over, had to lift tank to replace, the biggest thing seems to be I am constantly working on exhaust sytems, leaks, different mufflers, fitment issues etc. It always seems to be more than just hooking up the leads, sniffers, twisting the throttle and pushing keys.

[SEDELUXE]

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