Tuned Bike????????????

[SEDELUXE]

Originally Posted by wfolarry

A lot of people think that every pull on the dyno is at WOT & the life of the motor is reduced . If you seen a real tuner tune your bike you would understand why it takes more than a couple pulls to get it right. I ride my bike a lot harder than the dyno & it's still holding together. I must be lucky.

Larrry thank you for saying that.
a lot of tuners spend time just adjusting the afr and thats it never touching other tables at all.
now also keep in mind that if a tuner has a map in his library close to the build that he is doing at the present there might not be as many pulls.
so instead of it taking him lets say 5 hrs it might only take him 3-4 but keep in mind that is with tuners who know whart they are doing.

[SEDELUXE]

Originally Posted by hardluk1

Does anyone here thing that injection is not worth the time and money need to make a motor run right.
Hillside, how long should it have taken to get that motor right in your shop. And why not give a blueprint on what the dyno shop is look'n for so he some perimeters to work with . 60 plus runs?? that ain't a street motor and 117" 124hp ain't a race motor. So what the heck if air /fuel is some where between 13.2 and 13.8 on a run and the curves are smooth and it makes with in 5% of what it should is it worth another 45 + runs. I will stay with a carb . 60 runs on a motor ,that motors screw'd. Should not have to happen.A change of exhaust to something you have not seen will cost what ,,another grand. I guess the guy that did my last motor is dirt cheap by these standards.

my dyno sheet says 150 pulls.
also efi motors you can tune in 200 rpm increments can you do that with a carb. i dont think so.
in approx 3-7 yrs dyno tuners will be all over the place knowing only how to tune FI systems.
carb guys will be $hit out of luck.
also i dont want to start a pissing match here you know what i am talking about .
117 ci motor or larger with 125 hp and tq to match might not be no race motor but built with the parts that most of the guys are running its way more reliable and powerful then stock motors with a download map or a rejetted carb that the guy thinks is right.
every one who builds engines on this forum and other forums will tell you if you want it done right put the bike on a dyno and get her tuned correctly.
DYNO tuning does not hurt the engine if the engine was built correctly .
running a motor that is not tuned does more damage then you can imagine.
Now back to the pipe thing the guy who tuned my bike if i or other customers bought a diffrent pipe and put it on he would probley re tune it for free.
just for being a nice guy and its good for business.

[1711tab]

Originally Posted by SEDELUXE

Larrry thank you for saying that.
a lot of tuners spend time just adjusting the afr and thats it never touching other tables at all.
now also keep in mind that if a tuner has a map in his library close to the build that he is doing at the present there might not be as many pulls.
so instead of it taking him lets say 5 hrs it might only take him 3-4 but keep in mind that is with tuners who know whart they are doing.

Started tuning mine at noon finished at 8:15pm... If you want it right it takes time...

[TXCHOP]

And also to add the SEDELUXE'S statement, we happen to use the same tuner for a reason.
My bike is carb'd and Dave still did 36 runs. What many don't realize when they see dyno sheets and the AFR if dead balls flat, the bike still might not be fully tuned. Some bikes like different afr targets than others. Right WFO Larry. Also when a bike is tuned look at all the throttle position and rpm's that have to be tuned. If i had a choice between ridding a bike the was tuned in all throttle positions except 100% and riding a bike that was only tuned at 100% throttle its an easy choice. The one that is tuned at all throttle positions will have more power, run cooler, get better mileage, start better, idle better, etc.....
If a tuner told me he needs 10 runs to complete a tune, i will choose another tuner. This is all apparent in another thread going on here as well.

[nw_guy4_fun]

The tune time will be coming down as dyno shops use the new software available to them such as TTS and Direct Link. Once they get the low and mids fixed they can spend more time getting the power up not just making flat pretty curves.

[hardluk1]

After talking to dynojet and one of there tech's 12 to 14 WOT and a total of 4 to 5 in each gear at part throttle is what should be need so like a said be fore 60 + is to much for a street motor if the tech is up to speed and the tuner should know what he is working with ,a build sheet. and if a shop that builds and dynos should know what they need to be close. Carbs don't need near the work to get right. And i am not talking about WOT.only.

[baggersport]

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I suspect it would sound better if we use the term "runs" rather than "pulls" when referencing operation on a dyno.



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[hdryder]

Originally Posted by hardluk1

After talking to dynojet and one of there tech's 12 to 14 WOT and a total of 4 to 5 in each gear at part throttle is what should be need so like a said be fore 60 + is to much for a street motor if the tech is up to speed and the tuner should know what he is working with ,a build sheet. and if a shop that builds and dynos should know what they need to be close. Carbs don't need near the work to get right. And i am not talking about WOT.only.

Perhaps this is why alot of the canned maps in the p-commander software used on the exact builds are so poor!

[SEDELUXE]

Originally Posted by hardluk1

After talking to dynojet and one of there tech's 12 to 14 WOT and a total of 4 to 5 in each gear at part throttle is what should be need so like a said be fore 60 + is to much for a street motor if the tech is up to speed and the tuner should know what he is working with ,a build sheet. and if a shop that builds and dynos should know what they need to be close. Carbs don't need near the work to get right. And i am not talking about WOT.only.

hardluck i dont want this to sound wrong so dont take this in the wrong way.
then let them tune your bike.

everyones opinion is valued from what i have seen and herd from the experienced tuners tuning with the sert some guys can tune in 4-5 hrs others need longer.
my bike had more runs then others due to other reasons.
we tried 2 diffrent T/B.
diffrent air cleaners, quiet baffle and standard baffle in borzilla.
so you see there might be reasons that one does not know about when looking at dyno runs.
at the end of the day or days as long as the bike is tuned properly that is all that matters. i will say this you will not get it tuned in 20 runs.
the only way you might do it like i stated before is if you already have a tuned map for a build like the one you are tuning at the moment.
if you are making a map from scratch be prepared to spend some time on the dyno.

[nw_guy4_fun]

I just don't think it is that simple to quantify. There are so many tuning hardware and software variations. The PC with linktune will get you darn close very fast. The new TTS is promised to do the same for the closed loop Delphi bikes. Direct Link has "Autotune". All sorts of tuning bots that gather data and bulk update. A scratch built SERT map would take forever, well many hours, on a very out of spec motor IE 117" + with big TB. So I think trying to rate a tuner by the number of runs isn't entirely the best method and fool proof IMO. Some are just not real good and that is what costs time and added runs.
I would however agree that many tune to a price. We have them here. They level the WOT AFR at whatever is handy and where the HP and TQ fall that's it $250 dollars. If they road test and don't buck or have any poor manors... Good To Go!

[hardluk1]

What i was really getting at i guess is that we all pay enough for these motors and then i see where some hear have pay'd what ,maybe 1/3 again for dyno work. That just ain't right. And i know something as simple as exhaust can play into it but 60 to 100 runs. In to an injected motor. What the heck does that cost? If the builder can't load a base line map that can do a job of getting you to what, within 5% Should some one have to spend that much out of pocket to get it right. Just ain't right. These ain't race bikes. II like to spend money on toys but darn . all i know is what the guy at dynojet said and maybe some of this new soft ware is what he was talk'n about. I would darn sure ask.Or is all this dyno time part of the package. And some turd on a buza with still smoke ya. Pull out the dead horse I am done .

[SEDELUXE]

Originally Posted by hardluk1

What i was really getting at i guess is that we all pay enough for these motors and then i see where some hear have pay'd what ,maybe 1/3 again for dyno work. That just ain't right. And i know something as simple as exhaust can play into it but 60 to 100 runs. In to an injected motor. What the heck does that cost? If the builder can't load a base line map that can do a job of getting you to what, within 5% Should some one have to spend that much out of pocket to get it right. Just ain't right. These ain't race bikes. II like to spend money on toys but darn . all i know is what the guy at dynojet said and maybe some of this new soft ware is what he was talk'n about. I would darn sure ask.Or is all this dyno time part of the package. And some turd on a buza with still smoke ya. Pull out the dead horse I am done .

i agree with you 100%. i know what your sayin.
most builders dont have access to a dyno and maps.
and yes a break in map should come with the build. I know when i did my last build a 98in i got a break in map and it sucked engine ran hot and made all kinds of noises. OTTO made me a map that was pretty close to what i needed.
most guys can get break in maps from people but tuners dont want to part with the maps because they are really theirs.

[hdryder]

Originally Posted by SEDELUXE

i agree with you 100%. i know what your sayin.
most builders dont have access to a dyno and maps.
and yes a break in map should come with the build. I know when i did my last build a 98in i got a break in map and it sucked engine ran hot and made all kinds of noises. OTTO made me a map that was pretty close to what i needed.
most guys can get break in maps from people but tuners dont want to part with the maps because they are really theirs.

I agree with what you are stating, but sometimes people need to understand that they might be the first. Somebody has to be the first with every combo at sometime. Sometimes another build might be close enough to a "new" build, and sometimes you might find that nothing is really all that close. SEDELUE, I'm sure you understand this I'm just saying this for those who may not be as up on the fuel injection as others.

[YankeeBob]

Originally Posted by SEDELUXE

tuners dont want to part with the maps because they are really theirs.

I respectfully disagree George. If I pay a tuner to create a map for me, its mine. He can keep a copy and do with it as he pleases. But I sure as fukk am getting a copy of what I paid for!!

[Bruce Woltz]

"carb guys will be $hit out of luck. "

Why cuz the tuners won't want to get their hands dirty? Bruce