ScreaminEagle - No Oil Pressure...HELP-HELP-HELP...!?!?!

[Larry5150]

Originally Posted by thomblack

east coast attitude, move west, even the hd dealers here are cool! i relocated from new england, (east coaster for 37 years), to wyoming 11 years ago. i would never even consider moving back east. hd dealers are few and far between here in the northern rockies, but they are very helpful and they care!
tb

Yeup, i agree with you 100 percent...!
I`ve been all over this country, and i`ve never seen or delt with anything like it anywhere else for sure, except here in the northeast. I think its the shorter ridin season here that does it to them...lol. I use to live down south, i have no idea why i ever came back here...lol. The area i live in here, is nothing but snotty attitude`s, and college kid`s. (yeah go figure...lol)

Anyhow....
I recently found a new dealer, and they have been really super nice to my wife an i, and VERY knowledgable of everything you ask them. I`ve heard GREAT things about them AND their work. Though quite a ways to get to it, its VERY much worth the 120 miles there and back...! We all want to be treated fair, and have our bikes fixed right, the first time... not 8 or 10 trips or more, back to the dealer for the same problem because they dont know what they`re doing, like my wife an i have delt with at several dealerships here. Her 2004 sporty 1200 was at 3 different dealerships 11 times for a simple rockerbox oil leak before we finally made them buy it back from us. (an some people on here have questioned MY attitude and patience...???? uhhhh ok) All it needed was new rockerbox`s, but ALL 3 dealers kept replacing the gaskets every time. She`d go a few miles, and they`d start leakin badly (same spot everytime too...! uhhh hello...!) The bike had less than 2,000 miles on it... the dealership`s had the bike longer than SHE did. The NEW owner`s of the bike had new box`s put on it, and the bike has NEVER had an issue since then. (hmmmm, go figure, but what do I know, after turnin wrench`s for 40+ years)

Now my wife has a newer 2004FXSTI, but thats had its share of problems too, but to hell with the warranty as well as takin it back again and again and again, i fixed it myself because THEY couldnt, AFTER 3 friggin trips back there. (DUH - simple diag/fix - speed sensor was causing it to stall at stops) The warranty`s might pay the parts and labor, but what good is it if they cant fix`em.

The MoCo really NEED`S to educate their dealerships, and penalize the dealers if they dont pass a demandable level of excellence on ALL level`s of personal. I worked for HONDA MoCo, they would shut down your parts shipments if the dealers/employee`s didnt go thru all their training. That forced the dealers to make sure them & their employee`s were well trained and up to date. HD should really follow up 100% with their dealership`s & customer`s... if they dont, it will catch up sooner or later with them ALL...!

Oh well... onward we go though,
just for the sake of that ole rumble of a harley

Take care.... Ride safe my good friend...!

(larry)

[1711tab]

Originally Posted by Larry5150

Hello Howdy Hi There cts1950...
Grasping at straws...
hell yeah budd, i`m VERY open minded to ANY and ALL idea`s... ANYTHING is worth an extra look or a check over.
I pulled the pan last night... its super clean (i think the oil & filter changed every 2,000 miles had alot to do with that...lol)
The hose`s are in perfect shape (i checked them for hardness, softness and cracks... they`re good as new hose`s)
You`re correct, the old pumps wont fit the SE billit camplate.
(i was pretty much already aware of that when i compared them side by side)
Defective pump or camplate...? (you`re right, probably unlikely, but IS possible)

The pump is stamped 06 (it definately is the NEW Hi-Volume pump)
The part number to the whole SE billit kit is: 25283-07
According to the P&A book, this kit fit`s the 99 to 05 dyna`s & softails.

Juzz dunno buddie,
i`m just as dumbfouned with this as everybody else involved in this deal is.
I`ve checked everything so many times, i`m having nightmare`s over it...lol

I wanna tell you that i so very much appreciate ALL your help, thoughts and idea`s...
i am NO WAY ready to give up on this bike... somethin`s gotta give, sooner or later,
but it sure as hell wont be me...lol.

(larry)

That's the attitude "The weak get meek and the strong survive" OR

"there never was a horse that couldn't be rode and there never was a cowboy who couldn't be throwed"

Stay with it...

[arctic_mp7]

Just out of curiosity is the new pump assembled properly? If you have georotors/flat washer/wave washer/flat washer/georotor out of order or swithced around it will create a no preasure situation.

[cts1950]

Some more straws to grab at.
Do you ever watch the tv show House. This is beginning to be a real mystery and diagnostic who what done it. The Pump is a simple device the clearances are easily checked as in the service manuals along with a visual inspection. The difficult part to inspect is the plate it's self. First Is the pump staying dry, as no sign of any oil being pumped? If yes look from the pump to the pan. If some oil is at the pump obstructed manifold. The manifold would be the cam plate. This thing is cnc milled and drilled. You can try to remove the construction plugs the pipe plugs these cover where cross drilling takes place to connect the drilling's together. Think of it as a circuit board. I have found when inspecting hydraulic manifolds being able to push through pipe cleaners ( the thing to clean out the tar from Grand Dads pipe) through the ports and looking to see if the holes in fact connect. Lets say a drill slipped in it's Colet when the machine was set up and too short to drill deep enough. You should be able to trace each drilling in the circuit to verify. Blowing air through the holes might also help. Dose this motor have a Oil cooler? Hoses backward possible check valve in circuit. I have been looking at the original cam plate off mine the relief relief valve short circuits directly back to the pump inlet. If this seal is not good it would circulate air much easier than oil and could stop the pump from priming. There is another drilling that runs up to the oil filter after that it comes back to lube the cams lifters and the rest of the motor. The drilling in the engine case for the oil pressure switch is on the inlet side of the oil filter. If that switch is left out it should have full oil flow and pressure.

[Larry5150]

Originally Posted by cts1950

Some more straws to grab at.
Do you ever watch the tv show House. This is beginning to be a real mystery and diagnostic who what done it. The Pump is a simple device the clearances are easily checked as in the service manuals along with a visual inspection. The difficult part to inspect is the plate it's self. First Is the pump staying dry, as no sign of any oil being pumped? If yes look from the pump to the pan. If some oil is at the pump obstructed manifold. The manifold would be the cam plate. This thing is cnc milled and drilled. You can try to remove the construction plugs the pipe plugs these cover where cross drilling takes place to connect the drilling's together. Think of it as a circuit board. I have found when inspecting hydraulic manifolds being able to push through pipe cleaners ( the thing to clean out the tar from Grand Dads pipe) through the ports and looking to see if the holes in fact connect. Lets say a drill slipped in it's Colet when the machine was set up and too short to drill deep enough. You should be able to trace each drilling in the circuit to verify. Blowing air through the holes might also help. Dose this motor have a Oil cooler? Hoses backward possible check valve in circuit. I have been looking at the original cam plate off mine the relief relief valve short circuits directly back to the pump inlet. If this seal is not good it would circulate air much easier than oil and could stop the pump from priming. There is another drilling that runs up to the oil filter after that it comes back to lube the cams lifters and the rest of the motor. The drilling in the engine case for the oil pressure switch is on the inlet side of the oil filter. If that switch is left out it should have full oil flow and pressure.

Hi cts1950...
i`m going to tear it all back down one more time to look things over again. I will also go into the camplate, remove the plugs, an see if i can find anything wrong. I`m also gonna pull the pump all apart again too. Definately a mystery on somethin here. One of those 2 parts are sleeping an i just gotta wake`em up....lol. I`m NOT about to give up.... i`ve built hundred`s of motors in my lifetime, but i`ve never had a job fight me like this before... there is some little thing somewhere thats just not right and i`ve just not located it yet, is all. I will find the problem, it CAN NOT beat me....lol

As for your thought on:
The oil cooler... no, ther is no oil cooler. (great thought though...!)
Drill, Collet, Machining... good thought here too buddie. I am a CNC machinist by trade, so i know EXACTLY what your saying on that... i see this happen alot where i work, so anything`s possible.
Oil Pressue Switch... i took it completely out... no oil flow or pressure at all.
Each time i`ve had the pump out, the pump didnt look like it pumped any oil thru it at all... just the oil remains in it from when i put some in there on the installation of it. I think the problem may be between the camplate, at the pump, but not after the pump (if i`m reading the flow charts in the shop manuel correctly) I can hook up a vacuum pump to the oil tank hose`s, and oil fly`s right out of the hose, so i KNOW the oil can flow from the tank just fine.

I`m hopeing that someone from the MoCo is reading these forum`s...
maybe with a little help and thoughts on this matter, they will hopefully jump in here an throw some more idea`s at us.

As for YOUR, idea`s, dude, you an i think ALOT alike...lol.
You`ve came up with idea`s on the same level as i have....
i am very greatful for ALL the efforts and thoughts you`ve brought into this forum thread.

(larry)

[Larry5150]

Originally Posted by arctic_mp7

Just out of curiosity is the new pump assembled properly? If you have georotors/flat washer/wave washer/flat washer/georotor out of order or swithced around it will create a no preasure situation.

Hi arctic_mp7....
been there, done that, everything is correctly installed... but thanks greatly for adding idea`s.

(larry)

[Larry5150]

Originally Posted by 1711tab

That's the attitude "The weak get meek and the strong survive" OR

"there never was a horse that couldn't be rode and there never was a cowboy who couldn't be throwed"

Stay with it...

Thanks 1711tab...!

[Pikeslayer]

How about this:

Remove the cam plate and oil pump from the engine. Bolt the pump back on to the cam plate. Run it with a cordless drill somehow and see if oil shooting out of the appropriate holes. Would have to figure out a way to feed the pump oil.

[cts1950]

I do not have a photo to send you but I think this will be clear enough. I hand drew a diagram of a stock cam plate I know the SE plate will be drilled different but this should show the basic oil circuit.

[Larry5150]

Originally Posted by cts1950

I do not have a photo to send you but I think this will be clear enough. I hand drew a diagram of a stock cam plate I know the SE plate will be drilled different but this should show the basic oil circuit.

Hello there cts1950...
let me run this by you an see what you think...
Do you think it matters which way the outer oil pump rotor gets installed...???
(this would be the thinner outer one that sit`s against the camplate)
I was thinkin about how the 2 rotors may need to be in the right timing of each other to pass oil thru them, from one to the other (???) because they dont look like they have the "FLATS" in the same position where they each are run by the crankshaft. If this is true, one would think ther is a timing issue to let the oil pass from one to the other this way. I really dont know if this is true or not, because i cant find any information anywhere about the timing of the oil pump rotor`s, or even if they need to be.

So what i`m saying is, i take the outer smaller rotor back out of the pump, and reinstall it back into the pump turned completely around (???) I`m out of idea`s, so i thought maybe i`d run it by you an get your thought on it.

Anyway, my own thoughts about it....
i`ve turned wrench`s for probably 40+ years, and i`ve never had to "Time" an oil pump in anything i`ve ever built in the past.... BUT, what the hell, ther could always be a first time though huhhh. I`ve got nothin to lose, and everything to gain, IF it works after i`m done.

(larry)

[Larry5150]

Originally Posted by Pikeslayer

How about this:

Remove the cam plate and oil pump from the engine. Bolt the pump back on to the cam plate. Run it with a cordless drill somehow and see if oil shooting out of the appropriate holes. Would have to figure out a way to feed the pump oil.

Hi there Pikeslayer... thats a hell of a good idea...!!!! When i get it back apart, i will surely give that a shot...
at least i wouldnt have to keep tearin it down to try other stuff huhhh...?!??!?!?!?! Then i can actually see whats goin on....SUPER...!

Thanks greatly for the idea...!

(larry)

[Larry5150]

Originally Posted by cts1950

I do not have a photo to send you but I think this will be clear enough. I hand drew a diagram of a stock cam plate I know the SE plate will be drilled different but this should show the basic oil circuit.

Hey cts,
very NICE drawing...!
Well, i plugged the right hole anyway..!
(Wow, ther`s a plus finally in my favor...lol)

Thanks a ton for posting your drawing...
i had a pretty good idea on the flow,
but the photo summed it up perfectly...!


(larry)

[cts1950]

I do not think it is possible to change the timing of the oil pump it is controlled by the flats on the crank shaft. I found this exploded view of the high volume pump. The two wear plates separated by the wave washer is crucial it keeps the gerotor's in contact with the outer end of the pump and the cam plate.

[Larry5150]

Originally Posted by cts1950

I do not think it is possible to change the timing of the oil pump it is controlled by the flats on the crank shaft. I found this exploded view of the high volume pump. The two wear plates separated by the wave washer is crucial it keeps the gerotor's in contact with the outer end of the pump and the cam plate.

Geez i dunno, i didnt think ther was any difference at first, until i looked the "flats" over between the two.... the flats dont align together if you align the vanes with the two together (on top of each other) If you align the "vanes" of the rotors, then the "flats" dont align. So i was thinkin of the timing aspect of it when i saw the two rotor`s together, and they didnt match as far as where the flats were, by comparing the two. Kinda like valve timing... if both valve`s are open, well you get what i meen.

I dunno...
I will flip the outer one an see what happens... who know`s, maybe thats whats wrong with why i havent been able to get any oil pressure. I`m just throwing out anything as a possible/probable cause. I got nothin left to try.

I`m gonna go thru to the weekend workin on this, and if this SE kit dont work by then, or have found the problem i`m puttin the original stuff back in the bike an just run it the way it is. Nothin wrong with the original, i just figured i`d be better off updating it with the SE camplate/oil pump stuff.

(larry)

[cts1950]

Larry
What was the run out on the crank and the back lash on each of the drive gears? What I am thinking that the georotors can't rotate in the center of the bores for some reason. Chain drive is more forgiving to crank run out. The minor differences in manufacturing could change the gear drive set up from one cam plate to another. I know these are more straws but we are starting to run out.