Power Commander HP loss Problem

[vrsc]

Heres what I am running. PCIII, SE2 16 Gauge v-mod, Stage 1 ECM flash download (when I purchased the bike and before the PCIII), Topless, 28 tooth pulley with ECM speedo correction download (16 guage/28 tooth pulley flash) and a custom map that my HD powercommander tuner tech created. I lost 9 HP and 4 Ft-#'s of toque with my new set-up. I just added my 28 tooth pulley, ECM speedo calibration download and the v-mod 16 gauge baffels.

Before, I ran with PCIII, SE2 16 Gauge, Stage 1 ECM download (flash) and Topless. I dyno'd 116 HP and 76.6 ft-#'s of torque.

I have inserted my dyno chart. My tech was in a hurry to finish my bike and was having problems with the dyno because of the smaller pulley. I paid $250.00 for this dyno and I am totally disappointed. Why did I lose 9 hP???? Should I call the GM and complain and insist a re-dyno??? Any help would be great.

Are there any maps for this particular set up that I can try???? I will call Steve at v-mod on Monday, but is there a quick fix now???


__________________
2003 STERLING SILVER & VIVID BLACK V-ROD
PCIII, SE2's-16 Gauge, SE Air Fiter, Sundowner, Stage 2 LED Retrofit Tail Light with Pass-Through Turn Signal Connector, Chrome-lot's and Oh Yeah Topless

Ride on brother

[vrsc]

Here is my dyno sheet

[vrsc]

Here is my map break Down

[kspz3]

Your ignition advance looks aggressive - if you are hitting the knoks sensor it would reduce your HP - are the numbers bot corrected? Atmospheric conditions can make a difference - fuel also. Do you know the SAE correction factors for the two sessions. ALso is it the same dyno. Do they produce Airfuel ratio charts - my guess is that you may be a bit on the lean side on top. The 2500 spot also surprises me since you are on top of the SE setup that is alot to reduce - Personally I would tend to laye 3 to 5% on top of their 100% throttle map in the top half of things - but I have always prefered running a bit rich. Note: I have SE V_Mods, topless - and have recently switched to Race Tuner so take my thoughts with a grain of salt. the WOT 4,000-5,000 range also is a bit queer - my maps are usually smoother - I tend to take Power commander map and add fuel and sometimes ignition advance then observe race results. My map dynoed very close for AF ratio. Compare it to a power commander map and see how much difference - I am not familiar with the SE download for 28 tooth/ topless - did it re map or just correct for speedo - my guess is that it remapped - There are some smarter guys on this board that are real tuners that should be able to shed some light on things.
Kevin

[vrsc]

Kevin, thanks for your insight. Unfortunately I am not familiar with the lingo. I have not tuned it myself and I am now trying to learn everything I can about the PCIIIr. I e-mailed Steve and will await a response. I hope some other people will chime in.

I got it tuned at the same place, so it is the same dyno. I am aware about the atmospheric conditions, however it should not explain 9HP. I run 93 octane (always). As for the air fuel ratio, there is one on the bottom of my dyno chart. When compared to my last air fuel ratio dyno chart, this new one seems a real wavy not so straight.

What do you mean about, "I would tend to laye 3 to 5% on top of their 100% throttle map in the top half of things" and "I tend to take Power commander map and add fuel and sometimes ignition advance then observe race results. My map dynoed very close for AF ratio". Also what is the "WOT 4,000-5,000 range"
The tech will probably blame the v-mods because he said that the bike will lose power and run like $hit with the baffels played with. I explained to him that there has been many people who experienced positive results from the v-mods and who gain 1-2 HP.

Thanks, Jason

[ChopperSteve]

Jason:
Run MAP #018, unaltered and try the Dyno Again. The results will be much better!
Thanks: Steve

[kspz3]

VRSC - in response to your post -
Actually you can get a 5% to 10% wing in HP based upon differant caoditions Really hot humid weather can rub 5 to 6% of the HP - Cold dry can do the same in Gain - They have correction data that is supposed to correct for that.
WOT=Wide Open Throttle - in the table @ !00%
I tend to increase the Power Commander Maps by 3 to 5% - which means if a cell has a 7 then I add for example 5 = 12. I do that in the last column generally above 4,000 RPM staring at 3% an going to five. This is accessed with the power commander software in the "Fuel Table" illustrated above. This is because I ran without a top and I wanted to be on the safe(rich side). I race my VRod so I can compare runs to see if ther is an improvement one table to another.
I use the software sometimes to modify the maps - I was describing how I do them - My dyno comment was refferingg to the fact that when I had it dynoed and had the air/fuel ration checked that it was in fact very close to spot on - which means that my track tuning had worked. The 4,000 to 5,000 WOT comment is referring to the fuel table up above -WOT would be the 100% column - and the range reference would be for the rows 4,000, 4,500 and 5,000 (22,16,0) - Sorry I was confusing and I hope that this helps..... otherwise, Steve is good counsek.

[MonsterMaxx]

You are welcome to try mine and if you hadn't done the st1 flash it would probably be what you need.

Unfort w/ the flash your going to have to re-work it.

Map
You're welcome to try it, but you'll probably find it too rich.

We started with 017 which should be the same as 018 w/o the flash and found it very lean.


If you are good with Excel you could take my map, take PC's map that does what the flash does and subtract one from another.

Here's the spreadsheet that I used to manipulate the tables.
Pull up the table in PC3, select all the cells and copy them, then paste it into the spreadsheet. Once you've manipulated them you can select the spreadsheet and paste it back into the PC3.

**edit, tried something, not sure it'll work.

I took Map 015 (std 16ga) and subtracted Map016 (16ga ECM flash)
That should give me a table which is the difference between the two.
I then subtracted this from my map.
Saved the results to a file.

I left my ignition table alone since PC showed very little differece between 015 & 016.

Best of luck and as always, use at your own risk.

Try it, if it works great, if it acts goofy, take it out.

[vrsc]

MonsterMaxx, I did run your map (Robin 9-12-03). It did seem to increase my HP and torque. I ran it for about 200 miles and I got alot of popping and surging @ a constant 5000 & 7000 rpm. I ran map #18 and it runs great. I still have a small amount of popping but not much surging. My HD tech will re-tune it and re-dyno it. He will do this after I get my fuel flange replaced. I do not know what causes the popping and I will try to use your spreadsheet advise. Thanks so much for your input and knowledge. Once I get a working map into my PC from my tech, I will post so people can atleast try it.
Thanks, Jason

[MonsterMaxx]

from what I found popping & surging is too rich, which jives with the fact that the re-flash richens the ecu

try the above one where I've subtracted out what PC thinks is the richening

[vrsc]

Thanks, I will try it this weekend and report the results. Thanks again you rock!!!

[bill_pro199]

It looks pretty rich around 3000 RPM. When I ran it that rich I was getting a lot of sputtering. My bike would hardly run at 7000 feet ASL.

Looking at some of the MAP files available I have noticed most of the correction for the air fuel mixture is between 2500 - 5500 RPM. Above 5500 there seems to be very little correction needed for most pipe configurations. Why is this?

How much richer typically would the setting be running topless?
I richened MAP #18 up by about 7% from 3500 - 5500 RPM for running topless. It definitely made an improvement. How much more air flow is drawn for running topless? Maybe 5-10% would you say?

[SuperKaz]

Bill,
I would say Definitely Try it!If your not Yet Topless your really missing Out!
Kaz..........

[bill_pro199]

Kaz,

Now I am running topless. Seems to of picked up after I richened up the MAP. Sounds wicked too.. I am going to play with it a little and see what works best.

[SuperKaz]

Air + Fuel = POWER!
You can really hear her Breath with out the top on!
Kaz.........