19 hours to install Big Bore Kit (HD Brazil) : V-Twin Forum: Harley Davidson Forums

hamon_l · 10-15-2005, 05:51 PM

Guys,

Need your advice.
I live in Brazil and just traded my faithful EVO Heritage Classic 1998 (FLSTC) for a brand new Softail Deluxe (FLSNTi). I was recently in the US and bought a Stage 2 Big Bore Kit (95 Cylinders, Pistons, Cams, Air filter, etc. - PN 29850-04A).

Harley Davidson wants to charge me almost 19 man-hours to install it.

CAMS => 5.8 hours
KIT 95 => 10.8
AIR FILTER => 0.67
INJECTION CALIB => 4.5 (they say it´s Software cost)
OIL FILTER => 0.13
OIL CHANGE => 0.13
Is it me or they are out of their mind ?
Again, I am not much of a tech but it seems quite steep...

What would be the approx. time charged by a dealership in the US ?
Have any one of you been through this ?
Thanks for the help !

HDMD88 · 10-15-2005, 06:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hamon_l

Guys,

Need your advice.
I live in Brazil and just traded my faithful EVO Heritage Classic 1998 (FLSTC) for a brand new Softail Deluxe (FLSNTi). I was recently in the US and bought a Stage 2 Big Bore Kit (95 Cylinders, Pistons, Cams, Air filter, etc. - PN 29850-04A).

Harley Davidson wants to charge me almost 19 man-hours to install it.

Is it me or they are out of their mind ?
Again, I am not much of a tech but it seems quite steep...

What would be the approx. time charged by a dealership in the US ?
Have any one of you been through this ?
Thanks for the help !

I charge 17 hours for that but I include Dyno tuning with it.

Totenkopf · 10-15-2005, 06:57 PM

What is their shop rate there in USD per hour?

It should only take them (assuming they're competent) between 7 to 9 hours to do the job. That's what it takes around here. Usually the dealer will quote 10 hours at whatever the shop rate is for the labor cost. Usually it costs somewhere in the neighborhood of $500 to $800, depending on the dealer and the shop rate they use.

HDMD88 · 10-15-2005, 07:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Totenkopf

What is their shop rate there in USD per hour?

It should only take them (assuming they're competent) between 7 to 9 hours to do the job. That's what it takes around here. Usually the dealer will quote 10 hours at whatever the shop rate is for the labor cost. Usually it costs somewhere in the neighborhood of $500 to $800, depending on the dealer and the shop rate they use.

Shops that do this job in 10 hours are NOT checking clearances, setting up geometry and doing the job as meticulous as I do....It takes me 17 hours to do this job on a RoadKing with the dual pipes along with the tune.
I don't see how they can do it 10 hours and then out the door finished.

Totenkopf · 10-15-2005, 08:38 PM

Doc,
Can't comment on how meticulous you are, never seen you work but from the sounds of it, I'm sure you go the extra mile!

My tech is very thorough and checked everything, prepped everything correctly, torqued everything by the book and did my entire build (with no tuning though) in 9hrs. No shortcuts. The geared cam slowed him down a bit being extra careful checking all of it's assembly clearances.

Just a basic 95" kit is done in 7-8hrs routinely and I checked many shops in the area, they all say the same thing.

In my opinion, a regular dealer claiming and quoting 19 actual man hours of assembly time is just plain unreasonable!

djdemarce · 10-15-2005, 08:45 PM

I was just quoted 14 hours for the same build and that included dyno time.

tsuter · 10-15-2005, 11:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hamon_l

Guys,

What would be the approx. time charged by a dealership in the US ?
Have any one of you been through this ?
Thanks for the help !

Stage II big bore with 203 cams...eight hours with a reflash. Ten hours with the SERT including two on the dyno.

hamon_l · 10-15-2005, 11:51 PM

Thank you guys, this is great input.
Will actually print your answers and have a nice "friendly" talk with these bozos.

Let´s see how it goes...

csoday · 10-16-2005, 01:22 AM

I'll go with Doc on this one. Any time less than 12-14 depending on cams, extras (rollers, Comp releases, etc) and not including tuning is by someone taking shortcuts.

HDMD88 · 10-16-2005, 01:26 AM

If you take the parts out of the box and hope harley did everthing just right and you install the componets you can do it in 9 to 10 hough. But if you do the TDC lift clearance, free travel clearance check, remove the valve springs and install soft springs to clay pistons (this is how I found the bad port in the intake) then reinstall the valve springs only after they have been checked for installed height seat pressure then corrected if necessary, roller rockers clearanced and clayed, cam lobe clearanced at the pinion boss and tappet bore, cylinders cleaned to remove all hidden debre for longer ring life, cylinders installed in torque plates and mapped for the correct piston clearance, Cam cover clearanced for gear clearanced and clayed, gear drive set up and checked for binding or loose fitment, Torrington bearings installed in cam chest, final assy, change the oil and filter, clutch spring or gear ghange, EFI remaped to optimize the AFR, Ignition timing optimized, exhaust flow optimized for best power, etc. It takes me longer than 17 hours to do all this but I only charge for 17. It only thake once to be stung with a piston a bit tight and it micro welds the rings, noisy engine from the valves barley touching the pistons, valve seal damaged do to not enough free travel and it comes back a smoker, I don't know about you but I hate doing things twice and the customer hates having the bike down for things done wrong or simply missed or over looked. I don't feel I charge too much for what I do and I sleep better knowing the bike isn't coming back to haunt me.

csoday · 10-16-2005, 02:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FLSTFI-2005

So what happens when some of the parts are out of spec?

Do you charge them for replacement parts even though they brought in brand new never been opened boxes of parts?

How many times did you find anything wrong in those extra 7 hours? 1 out of 100? 100 out of 100?

In your last two replies to Doc you have acted like an ass. So I went back and checked some of your previous replies across the forums and it seems like a trend. So I will give you some advice, control yourself or I will do it for you.

harhog · 10-16-2005, 02:21 AM

Here i am siting reading this post with would you believe a bill for BB and cam update next to me, sheer coincedence. Now this is in Australian dollars, labour time is 8 hours at $66.5 = $532.41, so all up labour,parts and stage2 download comes to $2461.80 this also includes 10% GST tax. So roughly $1800us so things are not too bad in the states.Cheer up Boys.

harhog · 10-16-2005, 02:33 AM

Sorry I forgot to add and this will make Doc smile I've now got a problem with the rear cylinder running rich ever since the BB upgrade.Maybe the shop should have taken its time/care with the rebuild.
As Ned Kelly[bushranger] would have said" such is life" of course he said that as the noose went around his neck.

xkvator · 10-16-2005, 07:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hdmd88

I don't know about you but I hate doing things twice and the customer hates having the bike down for things done wrong or simply missed or over looked. I don't feel I charge too much for what I do and I sleep better knowing the bike isn't coming back to haunt me.

It only costs a little more to go 1st class...........I'm planning my next vacation to Florida...

HDMD88 · 10-16-2005, 08:46 AM

In the last two builds I found one of the the two cylinders needed honed .0002 to get the correct piston fit and make the cylinder straight because the piston was tight in the end of the bore. I have taken Sportster cams out of the box installed them but I took the time to degree the cams (check the timing) and found #2 cam was 50* out of time, this would have ran the piston into the valve if gone unchecked....and yes it was a set of S/E cams. I found a new out of the box adjustable push rod with a broken drill bit in the oil passage...this would have seized a rocker and a valve left unchecked....I can sit here for an hour typing the things I have found during the checks I do. The point isn't how many times I see things wrong....its catching the ONE before it gets installed into your motor. There are things I do to a motor that I will never reveal to the public because those things seperate me from the average tech. I'm not tring to blowing my own horn here just stating fact, every one of us has our own little secrets in the things we do to be a cut above at what we do.....