95" SE Heads, Flat Tops, 211 cams,SE 6200 Ignition, Thunderheader dyno results

[JagmanR]

Ok...got the 03 Fatboy dyno tested today. I'm an idiot when it comes to scanning and sending actual dyno reports in so I'll break it down.

On STD Dynojet:

101.75ft/lb torque, peaking at 4K and staying there to 5K.
80 lbs at 2K, 85lbs at 2200K to 3200K, 95lbs 3500K, 100lbs at 3700-4000K.

96.34HP


On SAE Dynojet:

99.54ft/lb torque and 94.27HP at similar intervals.

My understanding is that the 5th gear SAE is the more accurate run. Correct?

These numbers are frankly about what I expected. Essentially I gained about 10HP and 12lb's of torque from my old 88", 211 cams, SE Ignition, Thunderheader, with the 95", SE Heads/Flattop upgrade.

The most telling part of this dyno is the torque. There is a subtle torque dip, but not much, A/F is pretty straight, (was a little lean 1.5 to 2.5) but not bad. It was advised that a Mikuni carb would assist there greatly. The torque hit's 80 lbs at 2000rpm and pretty much stays there till about 3400 till the 211's kick in. It's just about what I've been feeling. So the TW-5G should really help get me to where I want to be. The performance mechanic at this HD dealer was extremely helpful and knowledgeable. He was very aware and impressed with Woods cams, and in fact has the Knight Prowler cams page in his files. We reviewed it and he thought the TW8G's would be more to his liking, but also understood the concept behind the bolt in torque cam and the heavy bike. We also discussed exhaust and he is a huge VH Propipe advocate and fired his bike up to let me hear it. That may be something I move to down the road, but for now I'll just install the 5G's, maybe swap out the carb, but most likely not right now.

I'll dyno it as soon as I get it done next week. Sorry for the long post and lack of a dyno chart. Someday I'll figure that stuff out

[SILVER BULLET]

4th gear would have been 91 hp. and 96 TQ. and thats about right for your build.

[HDWRENCH]

The run should have been done in 4th, and in sae, as for a tw8g is not a cam I would suggest for a 95inch bike unless you are willing to give up some bottom end. I would tune your carb now instead of throwing more money at it, as the Mik will need to be tuned as well. The t-header is a decent pipe I would not swap the V&H for the t-header. And if your afr is 2.5 high are you saying that it is 16.1?? as 13.5 is a good line to use. Can you post the graph??

[JagmanR]

Wrench...he said he would like to run a TW8G on his bike, but understood what I'm going for and agreed it was a solid cam.

The AFR started at 13.5@ 1.5K, jumped to 16@2.0K, back to 13.5@2.5, down to 12.0@3.0K, leveled out about 13.7@3.5K and stayed there to 6.5K.

I can see where some tuning needs to be done, but didn't see the point in paying him today, when I'll be installing the Woods cams next week.

The 4th gear SAE run was 91.9HP and 95.78ft/lb torque.

After I install the TW5G, should I expect to see any raw increase in HP and torque, other than just moving the torque down the rev band?

Thanks for your input!

[JagmanR]

Originally Posted by SILVER BULLET

4th gear would have been 91 hp. and 96 TQ. and thats about right for your build.

Thanks for the input Bullet.

[csoday]

Originally Posted by JDMracer

The Vance and Hines Propipe, just like every other Vance and Hines exhaust product, is designed for a STOCK twin cam motor. I would seriously look elsewhere if performance is one of your main objectives. Bassani,Force are a couple of companies that actually design their exhaust around modified motors.
.

The Pro Pipe is great for for modified motors. I wouldn't have a problem using it on motors in the 120" range. The only pipes designed for a stock motor are the ones in the showroom and even they are restrictive. Damn near every company designs their pipes for larger displacement. If they didn't they wouldn't be around.

[JagmanR]

I agree CS...seen too many propipes on highly modified motors, with great results by the way. Never has been my favorite pipe for looks or sound, but seems to perform well. I'm staying with my Thunderheader.

You run SE stuff...do my dyno numbers sound about right to you?

[csoday]

Originally Posted by JagmanR

I agree CS...seen too many propipes on highly modified motors, with great results by the way. Never has been my favorite pipe for looks or sound, but seems to perform well. I'm staying with my Thunderheader.

You run SE stuff...do my dyno numbers sound about right to you?

Your numbers look great but a Dyno sheet would be more conclussive to check the full curve. I would try to flatten out the A/F a bit though and you will probably see a taller curve at lower RPM's

[csoday]

Originally Posted by JDMracer

Your not going to find any off the shelf "propipes" from V&H at the track. All V&H products that are commercially available are designed around a stock displacement engine. V&H will state this directly without any hesitation.
Where exactly has V&H made that statement, surely not in their ads.
HOT BIKE - May issue page 18, AIM - April issue page 11
To state that almost every company designs their pipes for larger displacement is not accurate either. Most don't. Most people actually don't modify their motors. Some of the online performance forums may allude to a different picture. But we are the minority. Most pipe manufacturers make their products to appeal to the majority. The majority rarely do more than an aftermarket exhaust and air cleaner modification.

What most people (myself included) consider performance pipes and what you see at the "track" are two different things. Drag racing requires open pipes (that's why they are called DRAG pipes) for WOT. On a "performance" bike, most people (again myself included) want a pipe that performs across the entire RPM curve. WOT is a trade off for low end torque. That's what a street racer and a cruiser want.

[Kainam]

Im curious why dyno runs are suggested to be run in 4th gear? 5th gear in 5 and 6 speed trannys, and 4th gear in a 4 speed, are 1:1 ratio. Im more familiar with dyno runs for cars which are run in the gear that gives 1:1 trans ratio. Just curious whats the difference?


Thanks

-K

[JagmanR]

Originally Posted by JDMracer

If you really wanted to improve performance on your bike you could pick up quite a bit of torque and hp by having someone make you some pipes specific to your engine. Or pick up pipes that are more in line with your setup.
Take your Thunderheader for example. It was a great pipe and designed specifically around an modestly modified 80" evolution motor. The company did nothing to the pipe though when the larger Twin Cam motor came out. And not because it couldn't either. And looking at your 103" setup, your runing a modified motor thats 23% larger than what those pipes were intended for to begin with. No doubt there is alot of untapped potential in your setup still.

.

You offer some good points regarding the Thunderheader pipe. To my knowledge Rich Products isn't the most innovative firm in the industry, and I don't know of any R&D that has taken place over the last several years to keep pace with the new motors that have been produced since their inception. The fact is, however, that they work very well, in comparison to just about any other pipe on the market, (short of custom pipes, which I don't see as much of an option for most). Having said that, I'm always all ears for areas to improve performance. For me it's performance first to a point. If we are talking about 1-2 HP or lb's of torque from a Thunderheader to a Bassani Road Rage or other more contemporary pipes, and then they don't offer the fulfilling exhaust note that I maintain is a very pleasing part of biking, then who want's em? I guess you're not talking about D&D Fatcats,(don't think I'd ever get used to the anemic exhaust note anyway), and we know your pov on the Propipe, assume you are lumping Hooker Header 2-1, White Brothers E Series, and others in those commercially designed pipes for stock motors category. If the Fatcat offered 6-8 more lbs or HP than the Thunderheader....I would pay attention. But again, those aren't the pipes you are referring to. RB Racing is it?

Please be specific and tell us the pipes that are specifically designed for modified motors. Thanks

[JagmanR]

After putting every performance pipe, that most any performance shop uses on their builds, and posts on their dynos, (see Gerolamy, TMan, Dewey's, Headquarters), in the worthless, unless replacing stock pipes on stock motors category, I find it hard to believe that you don't have some solid alternatives to the pipes mentioned previously. We know of Bassani....what should the builders above be recommending on their builds vs the inadequate Fatcats, Propipes, Thunderheaders, E Pipes, Hookers, etc?

[Rubberhog]

I can only agree with CS, the Pro-pipe is an excellent choise for the street cruiser, also got many good results on big motors with the Pro-pipe, Here in Sweden we got the best numbers at the rearwheel with the Pro-pipe, You can also modify the pro-pipe a bit, have raised the hp up to 15 hp at the rear wheel in 5 minutes

[turbotc]

Originally Posted by JDMracer

This should also be put into perspective. People will spend $1000 or more to have their heads sent out to get ported and tailor'd to their ride. They will spend $600 for gear drvie cams that are tailored to their own ride,big bore pistons,intake, all kinds of goodies for their own specific bike. But when it comes to an exhaust what do they do? They pick up a cheap "one size fits all" pipe that isn't necessarily the best performing for their own ride. Why make a compromise here?

JDM,

You never really know how your "Onr Size Fit All" exhaust is going to work on a modified bike. If you look at exhaust shootouts some of the rags do the winner from the previous year may be the biggest loser the next year. All you have to do is change the components and or one component and the power can go down or up depending on how well the total package gets alone together.

I dislike Thunderheaders with a passion as they are too loud for my liking and to me they don't flow that well. Every now and again I see performance packages that make great peak numbers with them and don't have the dreaded Th dip either. I have a friend who did a 116 stroker using the S&S 116 kit, heads, ignition, carb etc. He chose not to use the SnS 640 cams and the G carb. Swapped cams out for Wood TW9Fg and the G out for a CV 51. Then bolted on his Thunderheader he has always run. Told him to dump the Thunderheader as it would not flow the engine. Had to eat my words. No ported or cleaned up heads, just straight out of the box and the CV 51 straight out of the box.

Well quess who got the biggest shock. ME!!!!!



Now I wish I had a copies of a friends S&S 113 graphs with worked everytihing that make 134 HP in dyno queen mode and 127 in street mode. Guess what it has on it. If you guessed V&H Pro Pipe you guessed right.
T-Man did the engine and like you thought the power would suck because of the PP. The owner of the bike told him it would not hurt the power just tune it.

Bottom line. You just never know. Saw a 124 Supertrapp 2.5 supermeg tunable exhaust with closed end cap match a Borazilla's output an it had just a tad bit better TQ curve too. Never would have thought it could match the Borzilla. "It an't over until the fat lady sings in tune or out of tune with the rest of the band"!!

[turbotc]

JDM,

Sometimes even a custom made 2-1 like that designed and built by Gerald Rienhart for a guy that use to race a 116 (now a 131) can be out done by those off the shelf pipes. When he tested it against some off the shelf offerings it got beat by two of them. Then found a set of stock heads pipes with AR100 mufflers with modified baffles made the best numbers of all the exhaust he tried and produced the best resluts on the long black dyno too. An't life funny!!! Sometimes simple is better! Was the cost of that custom made pipe worth it? In this case no. Not even at the races. Most custom made exhaust are not designed for all purpose riding. They are single purpose designs. If you are talking single purpose custom exhaust developed for max power and not max TQ then you could have a good dog in the hunt. Go for both max TQ along with max HP and not single purpose and you probalby have wasted $1200.00 + dollars and find yourself right back with the rest of us off the shelf guys.

What exhaust do you use at the strip and on the street? Would you post a dyno graph of you build so we can see how the overall performance of your exhaust compares to others? I use WB E on my softail and my 121 HP/ 131 TQ (for now) 95" FLHT, with TW26 can, ported heads, CV40 carb is run with just a header pipe even on the street. Forgot forced induction at 9 PSI.