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Old 07-17-2004, 03:52 PM   #1 (permalink)
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S&S 510G vs 570G

I've decided the way for me to pursue more hp for the Deuce is to get an aftermarket cam. Along with my existing stage 1 mod's that should provide the gains I'm after. From reading various threads the S&S 510G seems to be a much recommended cam. Would their 570G work as well, or does it need more mod's to truly be a better choice? What model Andrews or Screamin' Eagle cams would match up with these two from S&S? I'd assume any of these would work well should I later decide to do the big bore mod?
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Old 07-17-2004, 07:38 PM   #2 (permalink)
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55

510 is decent cam for higher rpm range. You will see most of your improvement in the horsepower number, but pulling power in the lower ranges will not have big gain. 570 is better with increased compression ratio, but this cam will not bolt in to your set up without pulling heads and adjusting springs for higher lift.
If you are considering the big bore for later, 510 will be inadequate as it doesn't respond to higher comp ratio. Personally, I recommend the Andrews 26 for better low and mid range power over the 510. Or, if you are going to go big bore now or in near future, the Andrews 37 or Wood TW6. Both of these cams really wake up with about 9.5 to 1 comp ratio which will be what you will have if you go with big bore and flat top pistons with stock heads.
One more suggestion, go with gear drive cam set up if you can afford it. It is well worth the change.
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Old 07-17-2004, 09:28 PM   #3 (permalink)
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Dude you've got a Deuce

Quote:
Originally Posted by John55
I've decided the way for me to pursue more hp for the Deuce is to get an aftermarket cam. Along with my existing stage 1 mod's that should provide the gains I'm after. From reading various threads the S&S 510G seems to be a much recommended cam. Would their 570G work as well, or does it need more mod's to truly be a better choice? What model Andrews or Screamin' Eagle cams would match up with these two from S&S? I'd assume any of these would work well should I later decide to do the big bore mod?
I spent sleepless hours bang my head against the wall trying to decide on which cam I wanted. I was finally sure I was settled on the wood cam t6h. It had great duration and huge lift to go with my 95" kit and SE heads. But the TC B motor can't use em or at least just wastes them. Those cams make power above 6500 rpm, the 570G too. The B motor cant go past 6200 cause of the balancers. I went with the 37G cams from andrews and I run like a bat out of hell until about 6000 rpms. I have sucked all the juice out of the rpms I have to play with. I jump off the line and those rubber mount guys with their high lift cams have to work damn hard to catch me, if they can catch me at all. At about 110 - 115 they will pass me up but that is enough to gun em down in the quarter. If you are not running high compression or 95" kit get the 26Gs from Andrews. Most of other cam profiles that are gear drive are for higher rpm bikes.
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Old 07-18-2004, 01:04 AM   #4 (permalink)
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What's the $$ difference in gear drive vs. chain? Is it the cost of the cams or the installation? How much difference is there in the $$?
Thanks

Quote:
Originally Posted by GRock
55

510 is decent cam for higher rpm range. You will see most of your improvement in the horsepower number, but pulling power in the lower ranges will not have big gain. 570 is better with increased compression ratio, but this cam will not bolt in to your set up without pulling heads and adjusting springs for higher lift.
If you are considering the big bore for later, 510 will be inadequate as it doesn't respond to higher comp ratio. Personally, I recommend the Andrews 26 for better low and mid range power over the 510. Or, if you are going to go big bore now or in near future, the Andrews 37 or Wood TW6. Both of these cams really wake up with about 9.5 to 1 comp ratio which will be what you will have if you go with big bore and flat top pistons with stock heads.
One more suggestion, go with gear drive cam set up if you can afford it. It is well worth the change.
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Old 07-18-2004, 03:19 AM   #5 (permalink)
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Gear Drive Cost

Quote:
Originally Posted by boydn1
What's the $$ difference in gear drive vs. chain? Is it the cost of the cams or the installation? How much difference is there in the $$?
Thanks
S&S has the only gear drive system (pattened). It retails for 365.00. I dont think you would be charged any extra for install than it is for regular cams. The price of cams is the same, you just have a more limited selection of cams that are made for gear drive.
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Old 07-18-2004, 03:50 PM   #6 (permalink)
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Andrews makes the gear drive set up also and can be had for about $300. It allows you to get rid of the cam chain tensioners and is stronger and more stable system.
Hillbilly,
Don't know where you got your info on high lift cams, especially the TW6H, but to say they make their power above 6500 RPM is ridiculous. Wood TW6H cam is a killer torque cam that makes 100 lbs torque at around 2100 RPM and peaks to 121 at about 3800 on my 107" B motor. We build 95's all the time with this cam and other high lift set ups and get great torque rise from 2000 and peak at about 108-112 torque right where you need it for a street bike. Hell, according to your theory, there wouldn't be a performance cam on the market for Harleys if they made their power after 6500. No one rides in that range. Maybe you are talking about Horsepower. But horsepower is not what powers your rear wheel. To get from point A to point B the fastest requires torque and that is what we call power. Your info is just plain wrong.
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Last edited by GRock; 07-18-2004 at 03:54 PM.
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Old 07-18-2004, 04:23 PM   #7 (permalink)
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You Are Right

Quote:
Originally Posted by GRock
Andrews makes the gear drive set up also and can be had for about $300. It allows you to get rid of the cam chain tensioners and is stronger and more stable system.
Hillbilly,
Don't know where you got your info on high lift cams, especially the TW6H, but to say they make their power above 6500 RPM is ridiculous. Wood TW6H cam is a killer torque cam that makes 100 lbs torque at around 2100 RPM and peaks to 121 at about 3800 on my 107" B motor. We build 95's all the time with this cam and other high lift set ups and get great torque rise from 2000 and peak at about 108-112 torque right where you need it for a street bike. Hell, according to your theory, there wouldn't be a performance cam on the market for Harleys if they made their power after 6500. No one rides in that range. Maybe you are talking about Horsepower. But horsepower is not what powers your rear wheel. To get from point A to point B the fastest requires torque and that is what we call power. Your info is just plain wrong.
I am talking about horsepower. That is the advantage of going with a Wood high lift cam. I am not saying they make big power at 6500, simply that the horsepower curve is still rising and on a B motor you will run right up and bump the rev limiter before the cam is done. My cam is just about done right at 6000 so I can feel when it is time to shift (right before 6200) and I have no worries of losing any horsepower. Torque gets you going and horsepower keeps you going. I make about the same torque with the E37G in my bike. Over 100 torque at 2000 and up to 112-115 at max on 95" motor. The higher duration on the wood cams and advanced timing makes them produce greater horsepower later in the rpm range. I am simply saying that for $100 dollars less (289 for 37 and 389 for the wood) you can get the same results. Plus even the SE heads I have are not going to flow a .590 lift that you need to take advantage of the cam. You would have to go ported. I am not putting down the wood cams, I think they make the best cam for the right motor. I am just saying that on this guy's bike they would not be a big advantage over the E37 or even the E26.
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Last edited by Hillbilly Brad; 07-18-2004 at 04:28 PM.
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Old 07-18-2004, 05:51 PM   #8 (permalink)
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Brad,
My original response made the suggestion for a TW6, not TW6H. For what John55 asked for, I made alternate suggestions and mentioned 37 and 26 Andrews and Wood tw6, all of which are similar cams that would be an option for him. Keep in mind that HP rating is nothing but a theoretical equation and there are a vast majority of cams of all sizes where the numbers are going to continue to climb well past the rev limit. So I guess we agree that for this guy's request TW6 is an option.
One other thing, the SE heads are capable of handling 590 and higher lift. Will agree that they can use a little cleaning up in the ports and floors, but the 1.90 intake and 1.610 exhaust are a nice valve combo for most performance mods. It is evidenced by the fact that they are now made to handle up to .620 lift. They are a nice step up from stock and will allow plenty of performance cams to show their stuff as long as the compression ratio gets to where it needs to be.
I see you are new to the site and it's good to see that you are jumping in and giving opinions and advice. Another take on an issue is always appreciated and welcome. Just remember this word....... TORQUE!!!
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Old 07-18-2004, 06:20 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Thanks to all who have offered up their opinions and suggestions, I truly appreciate the help. I'll check into all of the cams mentioned and will surely be going with a gear driven model.
Are the SE cams like the 203 and 204 similar to the ones by Andrews and Woods? Are they gear driven?
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Old 07-18-2004, 06:22 PM   #10 (permalink)
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Your right again....

Quote:
Originally Posted by GRock
Brad,
My original response made the suggestion for a TW6, not TW6H. For what John55 asked for, I made alternate suggestions and mentioned 37 and 26 Andrews and Wood tw6, all of which are similar cams that would be an option for him. Keep in mind that HP rating is nothing but a theoretical equation and there are a vast majority of cams of all sizes where the numbers are going to continue to climb well past the rev limit. So I guess we agree that for this guy's request TW6 is an option.
One other thing, the SE heads are capable of handling 590 and higher lift. Will agree that they can use a little cleaning up in the ports and floors, but the 1.90 intake and 1.610 exhaust are a nice valve combo for most performance mods. It is evidenced by the fact that they are now made to handle up to .620 lift. They are a nice step up from stock and will allow plenty of performance cams to show their stuff as long as the compression ratio gets to where it needs to be.
I see you are new to the site and it's good to see that you are jumping in and giving opinions and advice. Another take on an issue is always appreciated and welcome. Just remember this word....... TORQUE!!!
KEEP THE PAINT SIDE UP
Torque it is man. I couldnt agree with you more. I run 95HP and 115 TQ and I have never worried about having enough HQ, you'll get enough hp even when your are building for tq. I like wheelies and you need lots of TQ for that. Ride till the wheels fall off GRock
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Old 07-18-2004, 10:08 PM   #11 (permalink)
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510's are great in a 88" motor and they work pretty well in my 95" and are close to the 204's which are not gear driven.

S&S claims 82hp and 88lbs with the chain cams at 88".

Some will say the 37's are not good in a 88".

If you go with the 570's you need to do big bore and heads.

For you 37 fans I know they are a sweet spot for a flat top 95" build but there's not much difference in them and the 510's unlike going with some high lift cams.
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Old 07-19-2004, 05:39 AM   #12 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hillbilly Brad
But the TC B motor can't use em or at least just wastes them. Those cams make power above 6500 rpm, the 570G too. The B motor cant go past 6200 cause of the balancers.

Most of other cam profiles that are gear drive are for higher rpm bikes.

I have a 570G in my B motor. I can tell you both from riding expearince with this cam and dyno sheets it does not make power above 6200 RPM. In fact it starts falling off after 5500 RPM. Peak torque is at 4000 rpm with the 570G, my build that peak torque is 99.5 ft-lbs. Peak HP is before 5500 RPM. My motor does have increased compression and is a 95 inch. There is not head work other than springs to accomadate the high lift cam.

The 37G and 44G by andrews also work well in a B motor.
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Old 07-19-2004, 11:19 AM   #13 (permalink)
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FXDRYDR is reading this now saying WTF is this? FXDRYDR is reading this now saying WTF is this?
Quote:
Originally Posted by FLSTFI Dave
I have a 570G in my B motor. I can tell you both from riding expearince with this cam and dyno sheets it does not make power above 6200 RPM. In fact it starts falling off after 5500 RPM. Peak torque is at 4000 rpm with the 570G, my build that peak torque is 99.5 ft-lbs. Peak HP is before 5500 RPM. My motor does have increased compression and is a 95 inch. There is not head work other than springs to accomadate the high lift cam.

The 37G and 44G by andrews also work well in a B motor.
FLSTFI Dave -

I'm looking at a build and 570s were recommended, so any input is helpful. Could you post a dyno sheet? Can you fill me in a little on the rest of your build and in particular - your heads -- you mentioned springs, but did you do anything else to them? Where do the torque and HP start coming on and how do they progress? Most of all - how do you like it, what would you do differently and why? Thx.
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Old 07-19-2004, 01:21 PM   #14 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sparkkky
510's are great in a 88" motor and they work pretty well in my 95" and are close to the 204's which are not gear driven.

S&S claims 82hp and 88lbs with the chain cams at 88".

Some will say the 37's are not good in a 88".

If you go with the 570's you need to do big bore and heads.

For you 37 fans I know they are a sweet spot for a flat top 95" build but there's not much difference in them and the 510's unlike going with some high lift cams.
With 510G's My 88" motor shows 88.9 HP and 91.6 TQ.
Seems a bit high to me but that's what the sheet shows.
Only other changes are SE air filter, V&H BS Staggerds, PC111r.
There's a slight dip in the TQ curve between 26-3300 rpm but not noticabke
when riding.
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Old 07-20-2004, 05:46 AM   #15 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FXDRYDR
FLSTFI Dave -

I'm looking at a build and 570s were recommended, so any input is helpful. Could you post a dyno sheet? Can you fill me in a little on the rest of your build and in particular - your heads -- you mentioned springs, but did you do anything else to them? Where do the torque and HP start coming on and how do they progress? Most of all - how do you like it, what would you do differently and why? Thx.
I will try to get the dyno sheets scanned so I can post. My dyno sheets are tuning sheets, one is a 1/4 throttle run, then a 1/2, then a 3/4 and then a wot.

My head work consits of only springs for a higher lift cam. That is what is limiting the HP it makes, but not the torque. The stock TC head is set up for torque.

My build is very basic. Cylinders bored to 95 inch, HD SE cast pistons, flat top. coemtic gasikets, right at 10:1 compression. The S & S gear drive 570 cam. Then it's a EFI bike so I am using the SE race fueler module. Pipes are V & H big shot longs with the hidden cross over.

Seat of the pants it has more power through out the RPM range than stock. It is much better for riding two up in the hills of TN than stock, much less down shifting, much better acceleration. It really pulls hard from 2000 RPM up to 5000 RPM. I love it. I have impressed quite a few guys in ou club that have much more money spent in motor work but not much more performance.
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