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Old 11-11-2012, 06:11 PM   #31 (permalink)
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Top tier engine management systems and their respective tuners, for air cooled v-twins, be it high comp on pump, nitrous, or turbo, ALL tune in closed loop. This is not now nor will it ever be up for discussion. BUT, there is a chance that the Delphi and it's respective tuning devices are not up to the task; on this point I can only speculate.
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Old 11-11-2012, 07:29 PM   #32 (permalink)
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Great to see all of you guys!
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Old 11-11-2012, 07:37 PM   #33 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Knighty-Knight View Post
Top tier engine management systems and their respective tuners, for air cooled v-twins, be it high comp on pump, nitrous, or turbo, ALL tune in closed loop. This is not now nor will it ever be up for discussion. BUT, there is a chance that the Delphi and it's respective tuning devices are not up to the task; on this point I can only speculate.
most are alpha N when you get to Nitrous,turbo applications.and your right they dont use delphi.
Brian Truesdale has a closed loop system that uses his speed density ECM, sensors,and runs offset's to the closed loop system.
3500.00 is a little steep for most guys.
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Old 11-11-2012, 09:19 PM   #34 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Knighty-Knight View Post
Top tier engine management systems and their respective tuners, for air cooled v-twins, be it high comp on pump, nitrous, or turbo, ALL tune in closed loop. This is not now nor will it ever be up for discussion. BUT, there is a chance that the Delphi and it's respective tuning devices are not up to the task; on this point I can only speculate.
At what AFR?
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Old 11-11-2012, 11:00 PM   #35 (permalink)
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And Knighty Knight, correct me if I'm wrong, but I'll bet they are using wide band sensors.
As I implied in my other post, I can imagine how that would work, and might even be better. But I'm guessing these are fairly high maintenance engines and that collectable data is routinely analyzed after each run on the track.
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Old 11-12-2012, 08:34 AM   #36 (permalink)
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Jim that's quite the difference on the 2012. How did the afr differ? Could any of that been due to resetting the adaptive knock retard also?
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Old 11-12-2012, 09:19 AM   #37 (permalink)
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When you guys are tuning in open loop, say with a super tuner or race tuner... Do you set the entire a/f table to a set value, say 13.0, tune the bike, then change it when you're done, but just don't use the O2s? I would assume you modify the a/f table to your liking, I see a whole lot of 14.7 in the factory tables. What do you usually aim for in the cruise area? When you're not using the O2s do you cap the harness with an o2 eliminator like you would with a power commander? I'm kind of a newb with open loop tuning, and I'd like to give it a shot when I build my 113 this winter. I'm thinking about doing a race gas tune for it as well and just don't want to deal with O2 sensors for many reasons. I have an old race tuner right now, not sure what I'll end up using.

Say it's a '10+ bagger with a super tuner. I can't stand the smart tune. Has anyone tuned these open loop with a super tuner? If so, what do you use for an o2 eliminator with the new style sensors?

Quote:
Originally Posted by springer- View Post
In 2007 after the introduction of O2 sensors here is what we saw in the cylinders.

Note the red arrows, see the color difference? Do you know what is from? Those are heat streaks, but why are they just in those particular spots of the cylinders? And what causes them?

Here is another picture... Note the red arrows and the heat streaks coincide with the engine studs. The reason for this is there is no direct cooling to the outside fins at those locations. The heat can not dissipate quickly enough from those locations.

Also note the wider heat band at the 9 O'Clock position in the cylinder. Care to guess why that one is there? Hint, it is the location where the push rod tubes are found. There are no cylinder cooling fins at the push rod location. What causes this and why did it start showing up in 2007?

Answer CLOSED LOOP EFI.
I'm not arguing that a closed loop lean condition will generate more heat, but I have seen the heat bands you pictured in almost every tc I have taken apart, even carb bikes. In fact the last one I took apart just the other day was a well tuned carb bike and it had very noticeable heat bands. I think it's due more to the fact that the cylinder just can't dissipate heat in that area, and the conditions in which the bike is ridden. I'm sure lean conditions aren't helping, so I'm not sayin, I'm just sayin. I've ridden with people on a 95 degree day that will sit in traffic til the point the bike barely runs and the clutch barely works. I'd subject my bike to just about any kind of abuse you could imagine but I will not let it get hot.
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Old 11-12-2012, 10:01 AM   #38 (permalink)
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You can leave the sensors in place and shut them off in the software by setting the target to anything other than the 14.6, if you like to rid your pipe of them for the sake of looks you can install a 1 meg resistor. On the newer bikes they can be unplugged without throwing a cel, if the ecm is read it will read 02 sensors inactive.
As for the afr target table I generally set the cruise areas to 14.1 and progressively change them to 12.8 to 13.2 at wot, every bike is different and responds different to these tables as the rate of change through the target tables varies with a build's cam, power level etc.
As far as your question of changing the entire target table to one afr I have done it both ways and really see no reason to change the entire table over to the same target with the system I use.
While I am not entirely against 02 feedback I feel it's the adaptive fuel that can mess things up long term, I believe the new Power vision has the ability to shut off the adaptive fuel but retain 02 feedback. It will be interesting to see how this works out.
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Old 11-12-2012, 09:26 PM   #39 (permalink)
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most are alpha N when you get to Nitrous,turbo applications.and your right they dont use delphi.
Brian Truesdale has a closed loop system that uses his speed density ECM, sensors,and runs offset's to the closed loop system.
3500.00 is a little steep for most guys.
Hello Stroker, I dunno what Mr. Truesdale uses, it might be great, or not. I was referring to Pectel, Motec, and other like ecm units. Base cost is significantly higher than the ECM Mr. Truesdale sells.
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Old 11-12-2012, 09:35 PM   #40 (permalink)
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At what AFR?
I don't know.I do know that HD vtwins are tuned in closed loop, daily drivers, with much more compression than is thought prudent, on the forums. Individual knock sensors, individual cylinder AFR & timing, both closed loop; I'd guess that the limits are very much extended with the ECMs I've referenced, perhaps not
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Old 11-12-2012, 11:19 PM   #41 (permalink)
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And Knighty Knight, correct me if I'm wrong, but I'll bet they are using wide band sensors.
As I implied in my other post, I can imagine how that would work, and might even be better. But I'm guessing these are fairly high maintenance engines and that collectable data is routinely analyzed after each run on the track.
I can't correct you as I don't know . There is a spec sheet floating around for both Pectel and Motec though, and IIRC, that information is available. My logic on this one went like this "If these systems can be used to tune 1500hp Vipers for daily use, there is no way in hell a little ol'v-twin would have a problem". I've been wrong before and own that my "logic" is, well, not really logic at all.

As for high maintenance, not necessarily. Sometimes, yes, but not always. A rally car requires high maintenance, a turbo Viper requires less if built and tuned properly, a high compression n/a engine, of any sort requires less, again, if properly built. A mid level example would be a 930turbo making 750 daily wheel horsepower; we travelled to Florida and back on pump fuel; keep in mind that this was big money stuff, Motec, individual coils, plenty of dyno time, excellent parts, and pristine assembly. It was air cooled too, you can't imagine the size of the oil cooler on this rig, it was enormous. The motor has 30k or more on it, now and is an active participant in flog sessions on the track. This daily runs closed loop.

I still don't know if the Delphi system is up to par, the tuners do seem to though. Stroker tuned a monster 117 with just shy of 14:1 compression (I'd love to know the piston fit on this setup) on pump fuel; I don't know if it is a daily, but it does sound like it gets run.

Blue pill or red pill?
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Old 11-13-2012, 09:31 PM   #42 (permalink)
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motec is some good chit. been looking at it for a project bike.
closed loop is great if you can get it to work at whatever AFR you desire.
you didn't straddle that boxer down to Fl. did you Knight?

Russel the timing was 26 deg total with no activity on both pulls.
I didn't sample AFR, cat was in the way and time didn't permit me to install herko blocks . I had two waiting to tune, and Alans to do a stage II on. I wish I had more time to play.
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Old 11-13-2012, 10:35 PM   #43 (permalink)
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you didn't straddle that boxer down to Fl. did you ?play.
I'm sorry I don't understand. I didn't drive the while way if that's what you meant.

There are more cost effective value packed efi units out there than Motec. Check out Pectel.
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Old 11-14-2012, 05:10 AM   #44 (permalink)
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I'm sorry I don't understand. I didn't drive the while way if that's what you meant.

There are more cost effective value packed efi units out there than Motec. Check out Pectel.
exhaust heat
you were not sitting on top of the motor in the BMW were you.
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Old 11-14-2012, 07:21 AM   #45 (permalink)
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The 930 is a Porsche. Charcoal on black recaro seats, Ruf wheels. I'd like an inconel exhaust, not sure if it can be done though, here anyway.

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