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Old 11-10-2012, 08:15 PM   #16 (permalink)
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There ARE various opinions as far as whether closed loop is appropriate or not.
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Old 11-10-2012, 11:47 PM   #17 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by wurk_truk View Post
There ARE various opinions as far as whether closed loop is appropriate or not. My 427 Chevy Corvette ran closed loop withOUT any problems whatsoever. Think a Harley needs something LESS sophisticated? WHY?

Some are stuck in the stone age when it comes to technology.

14.4 cruise is too lean? Nascar runs 19:1 cruise.... so what exactly IS too lean?

A 4-5 gas tuner can NOT tune closed loop anyways, too slow, and BEAN and SPRINGER will admit to that. Not that tuning by gas isn't GREAT, but the response time to fill cells as needed are too slow.

So, folks here telling everyone that closed loop isn't happening, is just ONE side of things.

Everyone in this thread, but myself, either ONLY tunes open loop or have their bike tuned open loop by fellas that do NOT quite get it about this.

Thats fine, OP, do what you will... but remember this... some of the TOP tuners have NO problem with closed loop and ALL tuner MFGs allow closed loop tuning... TTS, PV, and SEPST. Hmmmmm..... must be SOMETHING there, huh?

EPA compliant my ass... tell that to folks who buy and drive the MOST expensive exotic cars, the fastest cars, etc............... ALL closed loop. Back in 'the day' closed loop WAS for EPA compliance, but with OBDII, CAR MFGs have all learned to tune the whole damn car just about everywhere except for WOT... CLOSED loop.

But, sure some on here think THEY are smarter than... Ford, GM, Chrysler, Ferrari, Porsche, etc

Now, those cars use MAF and it is more complicated, but ALL are speed density systems... just like our lowly HDs.

THE problem isn't necessareil;y closed loop, it's how the bike gathers the needed data. It's TOO frigging hard for most to take the TIME needed to get the O2s in a proper position., make sure reversion is looked at correctly, etc.

$400.... wham bam thank you open loop maam.

Some of this is OUR faults too. We as riders do NOT wish to pay a good tuner the $$$ necessary to make a closed loop system work well. One may have to alter those new POS pipes, or swap those POS muffs we just bought and are still new and shiney. Others won't leave the bikes for a few days so all of the dead ass cold issues can be fixed (this helps IMMENSELY with Closed loop, BTW), etc. etc. etc. It is EASIER to tune open loop and one gets what they pay for.

ANd everyone here that will jump my ass, except for Independent 1, should at least give things a REAL try AGAIN. Seems everyone made their minds up and all that about 2008, and the lines were drawn. I'm just stirring the pot with folks like BVBob, who dislikes me immensely, to sit down and figure what it would REALLY take to make a NICE running closed loop bike. eg: alter a head pipe for different O2 placement, etc. I work with machinery every day, and when my sensors are screwed up, NOTHING works correctly. Damn, if I don't feel the same about closed loop and the sensors involved there, too. If the O2s were an easier sensor like a photoeye or temp sensor (thermistor), etc this would be EASY as pie, but since it is NOT.....

I bought a TIG welder for pipes, also have a Twin SCan + kit, LC1s and an LMR2. Might buy something like an ALM1000. ALL of these are WIDE band controllers. I feel if one can make the narrow bands end up reading and calling out what the wide bands are SEEING, then we could be in business. I'm also a TTS fan, which ALL these guys hate because of Steve Cole. Take Steve Cole OUT of it, and TTS v2.1 will have analog inputs that will allow ME (you guys won't wish to do so) use my WBs to go into the datamaster trace without a hitch. Sometimes it is GOOD to be a suck ass. I get these kind of things from various MFGs all the time in the Car Wash field,... where I get an EXTRA output, or and EXTRA set of contacts. It's those EXTRAS that make a WORLD of difference and allow me to get the Job Done. I feel that 2.1 would allow actual Smart Folks to get the Job Done, too... and... run with it.

I'm not smart enough.

I feel it is NOT the closed loop Delphi system, but how MFGs do the pipes.

14.4 AFR is NOT the issue at all. I used to really have this Good Friend, a guy that I LOVED more than I do my own brother, whom I ALWAYS felt comfortable around, etc.,, named Jim. He fell out with me over open and closed loop and friggin Steve Cole. But... those reactors all use closed loop... work fine, and could NOT really work as well the 'old fashioned' way, right? O2s work the same way... warble the fuel back and forth centering the fuel for PROPER running... problem we all see is 'proper running' is hard to achieve. It's all about the pipes is MY feeling, and I have lost good friends trying to make them see it as a DATA problem and NOT about personalities. Hard to achieve... maybe... but not impossible by any stretch of the imagination at all.

But, whatever.

OP and Cruismsl... it take a really dedicated GOOD tuner... like Doc for example, to get closed loop to function GREAT. If more of us would expend time, play around, experiment, GOOD closed loop tunes would be more common place. Stroker JLK could be as highly regarded as say... Doc, come sometime, but Doc has been always, in the end, open minded. He HATED SERT, and thought PC3 was the sheit. Its ALL about being OPEN minded, I feel.

Ten years from now... won't matter. Tuning will be different, just like our air cooled bikes will be long gone at some point.

Have you ever considered the fact that all the auto manufacturers you mention sell cars to the general public and need to pass emissions tests? Why do you think O2 sensors were ever added in the first place? When you get ready for a real tune, call me, not a crap Smart Tune or VTune. I don't care what kind of tuning interface you like, TTS, Power Commander, Screamin Eagle, whatever, I'll tune it and it will get good mileage, run butter smooth, run cooler than anything tuned in closed loop, have excellent throttle response and have power on tap! I'm only a phone call away!

For the record, I don't hate TTS, I run it on my own personal bike and I'm a dealer for them.

Last edited by INDEPENDENT 1; 11-11-2012 at 10:45 AM. Reason: I like TTS MasterTune
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Old 11-11-2012, 12:05 AM   #18 (permalink)
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For the record, I don't hate TTS, I run it on my own personal bike and I'm a dealer for them.
But do you use all the tables available? I would really like to see if you could improve one of my tunes, which usually have a portion left closed loop.
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Old 11-11-2012, 12:14 AM   #19 (permalink)
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Absolutely I use all tables! Id certainly entertain the offer if you're proposing one and the opportunity presents itself. Maybe we could both learn something. I have read your posts and you seem to be a competent tuner. You and I have discussed combustion chemistry in the past as well as timing. I don't know if I could improve on one of your tunes, do you think you could improve on mine? Also, do you think that if the EPA keeps up with tighter restrictions that all shops that offer tuning may need to go to a 5 gas analyzer (read NOx) to give EPA compliant tunes? I'm not trying to get into an internet pissing match, I'm just stating the way that I tune and the reasons why.

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Old 11-11-2012, 04:31 AM   #20 (permalink)
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I will grant that the O2, OBD2 system was made for EPA compliance. But... do YOU think the vehicle MFGs would now eliminate them if... poof... ALL of the EPA rules disappeared?

Small block Chevies have over 500 hp STOCK because of this technology. Open loop/ and or carb engines were half that.

When folks talk about how much more powerful engines are now, compared to back in the day... that technology is closed loop fuel injection.

This was 'stumbled upon' along the way, but it IS the way of the world.

It's all about feeding an engine what it needs ALL the time, no more and no LESS fuel.

Do I think a stock tune is where it is at? No... not even on my Chevies, but to STATE closed loop should be thrown out, too. Ain't buying it.

Nascar is open loop right now, but F1 and Indy is CLOSED LOOP, Why is that? Nascar has NO where the HP per Cubic inch that F1 does.
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Old 11-11-2012, 06:17 AM   #21 (permalink)
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I never tune closed loop. I wouldn't do that to my worst enemy! If you want to take the drive, I'd be happy to oblige and as already stated, you will most definitely notice a difference in the way it runs. It will be much more responsive. As for exhaust, the pipe you're considering should work well. Another option is the Dragula. It's less costly and I've had good results with them.
Quick question. After the bike is tuned in open loop do you put it back in closed loop when finished tuning?
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Old 11-11-2012, 07:10 AM   #22 (permalink)
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improving upon a closed loop tune?
I'LL BE YOUR HUCKLEBEERRY

Here on these sheets we can take a look at closed loop and it's affect on a 'bone stock" 2012 FLHX. with 14,000 miles
supposedly all the closed loop crowd agree that a stock exhaust is what they are trying to duplicate when they grind aftermarket exhaust bungs ,in their attempt to get good sampling in closed loop areas.
open loop tuning is not just getting rid of the lean running condition mandated to pass emissions. the advantage comes when you take the "effects" of closed loop out of the picture.
closed loop corrections,effect the open loop portions of the tune as well. the ECM applies the same offsets to the open loop portion of a closed loop tune,causing it to go rich or lean as well.
a stock system (no tuner ever used to load a map) will not allow the closed loop portion to drive the open loop portion lean ,only rich. all the tuners on the market that use the stock NB sensors to try and tune with,allow the ECM to drive open loop rich and lean.
this is so that the software they use (smart tune/v tune) can be used to populate ve corrections.and or extend the data to the areas they cant collect data in.
when you run a closed loop map then you have to live with the AFV (adaptive fuel values) good, bad,ugly.
dyno jet power vision offers the ability to run closed loop with the option to disable these AFV's. I have not tried one to see if it works as described. and none of the die hard closed loop tuners wants to talk about if it works or not. I suspect this is because they were a cheerleader for closed loop without being able to control AFV's ,if they were to say they used power vision and shut the ARV's off,they would now be admitting there was a problem in the first place.


so lets look at this bone stock 2012 FLHX 103 ci.
bike was completely stock. delivered at 14,000 miles.
I warmed the motor,drive train,dyno up, then made some pulls.
run 1&2 was to get the motor to temp .
runs 3,4,5 was the bike as delivered. 71.33 hp/ 90.88 best.
shut down cool off the motor and bring it back to temp,two more runs just so it was the same as the first runs. (same temp)
the stock map was re-flashed ,very same map as the first runs.
the difference is when the stock map is re-flashed the adaptive fuel values are RESET. still the same bone stock bike made 75.07 hp/ 95.66 tq. this would be just as it was off the show room floor.
the third sheet compares the as delivered 14,000 mile stock bike to the same stock bike with just the AFV reset.
remember the closed loop guys are trying to duplicate a so called perfect factory closed loop tune. by this I mean the holy grail is ...if you can duplicate the stock bungs to sample like a stock bike ,your going to have the same results ,on a modified motor with hp exhaust , big ci , cams with a lot of overlap etc.
it is a nice sounding theory, and if it always worked as described,it would be the cats azz.
you can see the effect on a stock bike......you want that magnified on a modified motor?








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Old 11-11-2012, 07:14 AM   #23 (permalink)
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Friends don't let friends ride in closed loop.
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Old 11-11-2012, 07:18 AM   #24 (permalink)
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this what it did with a open loop map I configured ,with no sampling.
just my guess based on what I saw, this is what I would have used as my starting map (base) if I were to tune it stock.

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Old 11-11-2012, 08:13 AM   #25 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wurk_truk View Post
I will grant that the O2, OBD2 system was made for EPA compliance. But... do YOU think the vehicle MFGs would now eliminate them if... poof... ALL of the EPA rules disappeared?

Small block Chevies have over 500 hp STOCK because of this technology. Open loop/ and or carb engines were half that.

When folks talk about how much more powerful engines are now, compared to back in the day... that technology is closed loop fuel injection.

This was 'stumbled upon' along the way, but it IS the way of the world.

It's all about feeding an engine what it needs ALL the time, no more and no LESS fuel.

Do I think a stock tune is where it is at? No... not even on my Chevies, but to STATE closed loop should be thrown out, too. Ain't buying it.

Nascar is open loop right now, but F1 and Indy is CLOSED LOOP, Why is that? Nascar has NO where the HP per Cubic inch that F1 does.
I was going to stay out of this one but this post is ludicrous, so now you want to compare first a factory car with long intake tracts not to mention several feet of exhaust to a two cylinder, uneven firing ancient motor design with only inches of intake length and an exhaust that is not only hindered by atheistic design but is short with VERY little back pressure coupled with cams with wide overlap. Now we can throw in the fact the air/oil cooled motors that struggle to keep an even cool running condition are growing increasingly larger and wont have longevity on a lean running closed loop tune.
The problem with the closed loop operation is it is done primarily at light load operation, if you have spent as many dyno hours here as some you would see just how unstable and unreliable the sample is at light load. Oh, I know, the bungs are too long or in the wrong location, this is the biggest damn BS excuse I have heard yet for the failings of the V-tune, smart tune type systems. Just a poor excuse for a motor combo that has not only oxygen being pulled back up the exhaust during low speed running but also suffers from unburnded fuel AND oxygen carrying over and only the oxygen being measured giving a lean reading when it could be the other way. No way to get a clear picture with any system other than a 4 gas on these high cam overlap open exhaust motors
Now, if we do happen to get a good sample with the factory 02's in closed loop we then have this great feature called adaptive fuel, it not only makes corrections where it samples but it says what the hell, I think I will change the fueling some more places that haven't really sampled there but it should be correct right? WRONG!!!! This is where the system falls drastically short on anything other than a very close to stock cammed and exhausted bike.
But wait, we have all these great tables to make internal mathematical adjustments so that the overall numbers LOOK better and will be more in line when the adaptive fuel changes things. So we go through all of this including fudging the 02 signal in the form of voltage bias so we can run a small area of running conditions in closed loop.
So why not just adjust the tables to where the motor runs it's best,and make sure what you have done in controlled conditions stays that way.
What you are doing by putting that bike back in closed loop is nothing more than turning your hard work tuning over to a set of cheap narrow band sensors that are known to degrade and fail in a relatively short time frame.
I would also be happy to take anyone's closed loop V-tuned, smart tuned bike and prove to them there is a better way on the dyno. I can and have backed this up many times.
And if you really want to be politically correct all of these bikes are running closed loop with or without the 02's, they are taking info from the MAP, IAT TP, ET CP sensors and giving the data back real time which is what closed loop is. The difference is the bike won't run without these sensors while they do just fine and had previously to the influx of the 02's. EPA compliance device plain and simple, like it or not.
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Old 11-11-2012, 09:48 AM   #26 (permalink)
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To answer 107inhog, no, I dont put it back in closed loop, as Bob did an excellent job posting, that would basically erase all of my hard work and sampling I might have spent 3-4 hours on and would defeat the purpose.

Wurk Truk, Bob pretty much said it all, Im not much of a wordsmith or a keyboard commando, I just operate a dyno for a living. Also, you didn't "give me" anything as to why O2 sensors are used. The gist of your argument is that O2 sensors worked great for making power and thats why cars have them. As I stated earlier, power and EPA compliance are like water and oil, end of story. The rest of your post is just churlish and wont hold water, or power, whichever way you like it.

Im not trying to belittle anyone here, I think its best when shops can be friends, at least behind closed doors if nowhere else and the interweb wont allow that. I feel as if I am being attacked here and not real sure why? I have made an attempt to talk to at least one of you outside of this place but it hasn't worked and my posts to this forum, 95% of the time, are to learn from folks and teach others. There seems to be some insecurities here. I used to work for another shop, the guy had certain ideas about certain things and was unwilling to think about things and learn anything new. He was a know it all. If you didnt do things his way, you were an idiot and waisting your time and money even if he had never even tried anything else! I don't ever want to find myself in that place. I don't pretend to know everything. I always want to keep an open mind and I have an honest, deep thirst for theories, working on, tuning on, improving on these motorcycles that never seems to be quenched.

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Old 11-11-2012, 10:03 AM   #27 (permalink)
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Thank you independent 1. Just as I was thought but was not sure for I am not a tuner.

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Old 11-11-2012, 10:17 AM   #28 (permalink)
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This may be a bit out of context but it looks as if a post was removed or changed. I am posting to "clear up" what I believe was said previously that effectively put words in my mouth that I would NEVER have said nor intended be said about us, our equipment or our tuning abilities. Thanks



I am not sure what happened to the post but I will say that our equipment and abilities have nothing to do with tuning in open loop. We can tune in open or CLOSED loop equally well using our 4 gas analyzer. Sampling times are not a problem in any way.

Further comparing a WATER COOLED engine of any size to an AIR COOLED engine is a night and day comparison and can not be done. Everything changes once you add water cooling. The amount of heat that can be removed with water cooling is huge and key to high AFR's found in car engines today.

Our beloved HD's are ANTIQUE air cooled engines with the worst possible design of a 45 degree common crank pin. 14.4 or 14.7 or 15.2 might all be well and good in a WATER COOLED engine but our AIR COOLED engine can barely take it. Maintaining a closed loop system at these AFR's is blatantly abusive to the engine itself.

Lets look at the history of the Twin Cam and see why. HD added EFI in 1995 to an EVO engine. It was strictly an open look Alpha N design. Knowing the EPA emissions standards were changing and HD was going to be held to a much higher standard than before HD had to do something to make their engines withstand much higher AFR's. With the introduction of the Twin Cam we saw an 88 inch engine, a mere 10% larger than the previous 80" EVO yet a 50% increase in cooling fin area. Also they added piston cooling jets to squirt oil at the piston crowns using the oil strictly for cooling to remove heat from the piston. As we move along and HD introduces the Delphi EFI system (Speed Density, not Alpha N), they did this knowing that O2 sensors were in their very near future. Closed loop was added for 1 reason only, to stay in business since the EPA would not continue to allow them to produce motorcycles is they did not meet the standards.

In 2007 after the introduction of O2 sensors here is what we saw in the cylinders.


Note the red arrows, see the color difference? Do you know what is from? Those are heat streaks, but why are they just in those particular spots of the cylinders? And what causes them?

Here is another picture... Note the red arrows and the heat streaks coincide with the engine studs. The reason for this is there is no direct cooling to the outside fins at those locations. The heat can not dissipate quickly enough from those locations.


Also note the wider heat band at the 9 O'Clock position in the cylinder. Care to guess why that one is there? Hint, it is the location where the push rod tubes are found. There are no cylinder cooling fins at the push rod location. What causes this and why did it start showing up in 2007?

Answer CLOSED LOOP EFI.

Now lets take that engine and add higher compression and increased torque and hp. Do you still want closed loop and the added heat that goes along with higher compression, increased torque, hp and an already WAY too lean AFR of 14.7? Not me thanks.

So what do we learn from this?

1 Don't compare water cooled to air cooled engine for tuning or anything else.
2 We can tune ANY motorcycle, open loop, closed loop, carburated, 2 cylinder, 4 cylinder, crotch rocket or even our beloved ANTIQUE 45 degree common crank pin Harley's.
3 O2 sensors keep HD in business.
4 Stock engines run HOT (Lean) and to cool them down you need to add fuel (Richer).
5 Performance adds even more HEAT to an already HOT engine.
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Old 11-11-2012, 10:20 AM   #29 (permalink)
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I'm no dyno tuner.
I follow the tuning threads on this and another forum closely, so I can learn.
I'm a big picture type of learner. That works out very well for me in my job, which, in a lot of ways, is similar to a mechanic's job. Knowledge of systems, how they interact, and then troubleshooting to find the problem based on symptoms and data. It is impossible to do my job with shitty data. My logic might be spot on based on the data, but my diagnosis and treatment will still be in error if the data is bad.

I have anecdotal experience with closed vs open loop. I shelled an engine at 27,000 miles due, I think, to four, tail chasing, closed loop tuning attempts. I've also read hundreds of posts in dozens of threads by guys who are in the midst of the tail chasing. I've stated this before. I take my bike to Bob, he spends four or five hours on it, and then I ride it. Simple as that. And no more shelled motors. And the tune doesn't change itself.

I understand the argument that WB sensors can give bad data too. But Bob and Stroker are well aware of that and monitor for that possibility constantly. I have two issues with the NB sensors. 1) they are narrow band. 2) They are left in place in closed loop and the tune relies on their signal, good or bad. If a sensor goes bad, what has it done to your tune in the process? Further, what do you have to do to get the tune back to where it was when the sensor was good? Like I say, I just ride my bike. Bob will attest to that.

One thing left out of the argument that automobiles all use sensors is that they have radiators. While a closed loop bike may work good enough in most temps, I simply don't accept that that bike won't run hot when it is 100+ degrees and it's being ridden in a 25 mph crosswind at 40 or 50% throttle. It will. Even a stock bike. Having seen what that heat does to the top end and the low end of a mild 103", I lost all interest in the present closed loop system. I put 90,000 miles on an '04 Heritage, the last 40,000 or so with 204 cams. That bike is still running.....in open loop.

To be honest, I like the idea of closed loop. But I can't imagine how a tune could be perfect in closed loop without the use of WB sensors. Even then, in the V Twin engine, given all of the inherent issues Bob mentioned, I am skeptical. I am watching the PV threads. I can't help but wonder what closed loop using the WB sensors might run like. The "learning" capabilities of any "auto tune" system relies on data though. That's why I'm skeptical. If any of that data degrades over time, there goes your tune, insidiously. And then you have to start over, or worse. I just like to ride.

Edit: Springer, you must have been typing while I was. I still have the cylinders from that 103". They look even worse.
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Old 11-11-2012, 10:37 AM   #30 (permalink)
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nw_guy4_fun wants to know Dino or Syn?
I am not a tuner by any means or fashion but what I have observed over a career spanning 30+ years in and out of OEM and motorsports work is EFI is a mechanical device and in later years controlled by software. As designed EFI does help the OEM meet stringent reliability / emission standards. The motor is force fed and the demand is determined by sensors and algorithms. I have no issue with that and obviously the system in it's crude form, one step better than a 90 chev TBI, does do a decent job. The whole agenda of AFV and adaptive timing and all of that stuff may have the technologists all happy or at least buzzing about it but in a performance motor, one with considerably more overlap and compression than stock I am not sure I see the value and can see the potential for power loss best case and engine damage worse case.

I have observed even Alpha-n equipped bikes can perform flawlessly. With Speed density motors in some cases considering the long overlap cams used and just the nature of the firing timing the signal to the MAP would have limited resolution. This effects timing, the one black art so to speak that none of this AFR monitoring addresses. Timing can make or break power. On my motor the ION sensing is off, purposely. That one change raised me up 10hp and the motor does not ping even when lugging a little. This may not be the case with every Delphi TTS tuned build but if they are falsely pulling timing lots of HP is being left on the table and the motor is building added heat, guaranteed. Timing can and does have more of an influence on power than the AFR.

When measured by 4 gas the real story is told, if timing is excessive or not enough the NOx and HC numbers are affected. I would guess that one of these 4gas tuned bikes would have the AFR lines all screwed up and would that then be a talking point? If AFR lines are all screwed up, the bike runs great and gets good mileage and has a flat CO, HC line and makes good power is that OK? How are you guys going to compare? Furthermore there are accepted safe ranges for CO or AFR, pick your poison, that yield excellent driveability, economy, and motor life. too lean is too hot, too rich builds carbon and in worse case washes oil from the cylinders too. As far as what will be the "best" AFR (or CO) for highest power. That takes testing because each motor may like something a little different. Pipes have a huge influence. Way back when, Grock told me that he made the best horesepower on EFI bikes using various heads including Deweys at or around 13.6 afr. Might be surprised that many of these motors don't need as much timing either as we had typical thought to make maximum power. In the dynojet world the torque arm could be leveraged to reveal big benefits in my opinion.

Thanks for the soap box, back to your regular scheduled programming.
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Don Dorfman
~~Motorcycle Enthusiast~~

Last edited by nw_guy4_fun; 11-11-2012 at 10:57 AM.
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