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Old 10-08-2012, 11:59 AM   #1 (permalink)
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Totenkopf is reading this now saying WTF is this?
Se 120r ... fyi

Just a heads up on one ill 120R in our area. Otto just repaired a SE 120R crate motor that has only 1200 miles on it and this is the second time a top end was done on it. It's been at a dealer and they replaced the pistons and cylinders the first time a while ago and sent it on it's way. It was "okay" for a few hundred miles and the noise came back again. The dealer got Otto involved and the diagnosis is poor piston to cylinder fit. Out of round cylinders that varied in piston fit from 0.0035" to 0.0065". Just wanted to let you know what we're seeing.
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Old 10-08-2012, 12:39 PM   #2 (permalink)
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FXDRYDR is reading this now saying WTF is this? FXDRYDR is reading this now saying WTF is this?
Interesting. I was at an inde shop Sat., and the guy told me he recently had a 120R in that had slipped the flywheels. Said it was the first 120R he'd personally seen do that, but the second he's heard of in this area.
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Old 10-08-2012, 03:52 PM   #3 (permalink)
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And so it begins.
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Old 10-08-2012, 05:52 PM   #4 (permalink)
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strokerjlk is reading this now saying WTF is this?
Tote . Do you guys know how it was tuned?
I know of one that popped a head gasket. It had to be surfaced.
This guy has had three diff tunes from dealerships , running sepst closed loop.
Were the clys / pistons scuffed? Smooth? Beatup?
In yours and or ottos opinion what was the Root cause ?
Out of round . But was the egg first or the chicken?
1200 miles isn't anything but the 110 Cvo bikes could roast theirselves that quick if you slapped a stage 1 pipe and breather on them and a half azz tune/stage I flash / or no tune at all
Keep us posted
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Old 10-08-2012, 08:28 PM   #5 (permalink)
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Totenkopf is reading this now saying WTF is this?
Quote:
Originally Posted by strokerjlk View Post
Tote . Do you guys know how it was tuned?
I know of one that popped a head gasket. It had to be surfaced.
This guy has had three diff tunes from dealerships , running sepst closed loop.
Were the clys / pistons scuffed? Smooth? Beatup?
In yours and or ottos opinion what was the Root cause ?
Out of round . But was the egg first or the chicken?
1200 miles isn't anything but the 110 Cvo bikes could roast theirselves that quick if you slapped a stage 1 pipe and breather on them and a half azz tune/stage I flash / or no tune at all
Keep us posted
I didn't get those details, Otto mentioned it in passing Sat. when I was at the shop and we were working on my ACR issue on my 117. It was in the context of why he prefers to build the 120's with 0.010" over pistons and actually fit the cylinders to the pistons and control it to a much higher degree than the production stuff. His 120 builds are holding up really well. The crate motors are hit or miss. If I can find out more, I'll definitely pass it on as everyone needs to be aware of these incidents.

By the way, we had a really interesting discussion on the issues on the S&S easy start cams but that is a whole other thread discussion.
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Old 10-08-2012, 10:53 PM   #6 (permalink)
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Quote:
By the way, we had a really interesting discussion on the issues on the S&S easy start cams but that is a whole other thread discussion.
OK Tote, you baited the question and so I have to ask even at the risk of "high jacking" this thread. Maybe post another thread on the new topic as you see fit, but I need to know more about this subject as I have a set of ES cams now and considering other new Crane Cams variants in my future with the ES feature. So far, been very happy with my 585 ES cams at all sorts of elevations from sea level where I live to 10.2 K feet.

Help me out here Pard!

Regards as always,

-Tutt
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Old 10-08-2012, 11:36 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Thanks for the Heads Up, Tote!
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Old 10-09-2012, 10:23 AM   #8 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by CowboyTutt View Post
OK Tote, you baited the question and so I have to ask even at the risk of "high jacking" this thread. Maybe post another thread on the new topic as you see fit, but I need to know more about this subject as I have a set of ES cams now and considering other new Crane Cams variants in my future with the ES feature. So far, been very happy with my 585 ES cams at all sorts of elevations from sea level where I live to 10.2 K feet.

Help me out here Pard!

Regards as always,

-Tutt
Here's the general idea....

Twinkies use a small diameter roller in the lifter. There is concern that the extra "bumping" (as opposed to a ramp) of them will eventually accelerate their demise. A hollow camshaft with internal moving parts from the counter-balance trigger mechanism, shaft and spring may not be a good long term idea in the real world with all the scenarios ever observed in these motors with self inflicted debris, owner lack of maintenance and abuse. Adding mechanical complexity internally in the motor just seems counter-intuitive over the long haul.

So, just applying healthy skepticism based on 30 yrs of v-twin experience and not blindly believing all the marketing hype. In the long term, the skepticism may ease, as the deployed ES units in the field get used in the broad base of the real world but we think the jury is still out.

By comparison, mechanical CR's are dead simple to use and service. (ACR's are more complicated and would be prone to more issues we think.) It just seems that the ES cam solution is a complicated solution by comparison to the simple mechanical external CR's.

Just another opinion.
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Old 10-09-2012, 10:59 AM   #9 (permalink)
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Interesting idea. I have about 22K on my B lifters and ES 585 camshaft. So far so good I think, but the lifters may not "telegraph" when they are going to "let go". Any warning signs to look for? Thanks Tote! -Tutt
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Old 10-09-2012, 06:53 PM   #10 (permalink)
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HMMM

We have done a BUNCH of these 120R and with 15PSI of boost.. No cylinder issues what so ever. I have to wonder about tune.. and flywheel out.. I read and hear about guys whinning that the bike will ping in 6th gear at 35 MPH.. .. some guys should not own a HD..

From what we have seen the 120R as a crate is not what I would call a bad engine. There are a few things that I think can be tweaked but overall they are running well.. But we all know how a tune and how a person rides a bike will effect the end result.. Please keep us posted as to what you find out..

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Old 10-09-2012, 08:24 PM   #11 (permalink)
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If he fixed it did he put it on his dyno & check it? Hate to see it come back to him 1200 miles from now.
I think the easy starts is a good idea that will prove itself over time. I was at S&S last year and asked about them. They showed me their setup & how they check them. Looked good to me.
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Old 10-09-2012, 09:13 PM   #12 (permalink)
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Totenkopf is reading this now saying WTF is this?
Hi Steve and Larry,

I didn't get the details on the state of tune of that bike. The bike was at a dealer in our area, Otto was called in to help solve the issue. He did not take possesion of the bike, he figured out that the noise was pistons not fitting correctly. The dealer did the disassembly and he fixed it with 10 overs and correctly fitting cylinders back at his shop. If it is a bad tune, the owner needs to see Otto or Bryan and get the tune sorted out before it does more bad things. We have seen enough bad cyl/piston fits of that bore size to know that the production tolerance of those is variable. The thing is with these, the fit is not so bad that it surfaces immediately, the rings have to wear a bit, then it becomes evident.
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Old 10-09-2012, 09:17 PM   #13 (permalink)
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Thanks for your input Larry and Tote too! -Tutt
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Old 10-10-2012, 08:22 AM   #14 (permalink)
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I have 8k on my out of the crate motor, I guess Im gonna have to tear it apart this winter
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Old 10-10-2012, 08:49 AM   #15 (permalink)
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When I was talking to my local stealer about putting my new GMR- CP pistons he suggested that a .010" oversize was the go to ensure the poor QA was not an issue

Like I said that was from a stealers mech with a descent Rep

Glad I did
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