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Old 06-27-2012, 04:58 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Gear driven cams on a non-welded crank

Hey guys, the "gear driven cam debate" is always interesting if a bit old. This thread with pictures was recently posted on the HTT forum and shows what COULD happen with gear driven cams on a non-welded crank that shifted the flywheels.

http://harleytechtalk.org/htt/index....c,52835.0.html

Just food for thought.

-Tutt
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Old 06-27-2012, 06:39 PM   #2 (permalink)
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Fred1369 is reading this now saying WTF is this?
I've had gear drive on a 4 inch crank for 6 or 7 years now with no problems related to them.
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Old 06-27-2012, 06:58 PM   #3 (permalink)
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That's a good point Fred. There is most likely more to the subject than just the welded crank. Since you have the 4 inch crank I'm guessing you have the stock Timken bearing on the left side which was a lot stronger than what the MoCo currently offers with their press-fit cranks and roller bearings but I will wait until someone more knowledgeable has input on the subject. Regards and thank you! -Tutt
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Old 06-27-2012, 06:58 PM   #4 (permalink)
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Uncle Salty is reading this now saying WTF is this?
Running gear drive on a stock '04 crank with .0015" runout. I have about 58,500 miles on the motor with 30,000 miles on the gear drive setup. Not saying it couldn't scissor at any time but so far I'm happy.
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Old 06-27-2012, 06:59 PM   #5 (permalink)
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I had 30,000 miles on my 06 ultra with gear drive cams and no problems till the Jim's lifters to a chit when the plating come off the roller and started to take the cam out.
I did weld the crank this time around sense I had it out by a friend that has been doing it for years. Good luck on yours.
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Old 06-27-2012, 07:01 PM   #6 (permalink)
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Uncle Salty, you most likely couldn't even FIND a stock crank today with such a low run out. -Tutt
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Old 06-27-2012, 07:09 PM   #7 (permalink)
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From the original post on HTT

Quote:
The bike is a 06 Street Glide,
So I think it would have been the older crank and bearing assembly???? -Tutt
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Old 06-27-2012, 07:19 PM   #8 (permalink)
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I just wanted to say that the only purpose to my posting this thread is that so people can make an informed decision on what upgrades they decide to do, and nothing else. I tend to over-build things as I don't have money for "do-overs" and I have to pay for my labor but that's just me. -Tutt
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Old 06-27-2012, 07:33 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Think of it this way..."damn honey, I just gotta go to a 120 crate motor because that darn crank scissored, It's not THAT much more money..."
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Old 06-27-2012, 08:09 PM   #10 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CowboyTutt View Post
Uncle Salty, you most likely couldn't even FIND a stock crank today with such a low run out. -Tutt
Yep, I just hope it stays @ .0015"

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Old 06-27-2012, 08:54 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CowboyTutt View Post
Hey guys, the "gear driven cam debate" is always interesting if a bit old. This thread with pictures was recently posted on the HTT forum and shows what COULD happen with gear driven cams on a non-welded crank that shifted the flywheels.

http://harleytechtalk.org/htt/index....c,52835.0.html

Just food for thought.

-Tutt
Eh Tutt .. Ya its me again ya know how I feel on the topic my friend as it has been the talk of the town on many occassions not only on VTF but recently on HTT.

I cannot speak for the TC built after 02 as I am on a 00 but what I can say without any BS at all is the 00 has been solid. After 128,000+ Kms it still has 0.0005 on the primary side & 0.0015 on the cam chest side.

I will be running the 37G cams & the S&S gears.
I am not going to get into the advantages & disadvantages of gears VS rubbing blocks & chains based on claims without real past experiences. I can say if I have to eat the gears once it is up & off the tune table I would most certainly conceed to your dedication of the chains if I want to settle for second best.

I will admit I am just as dedicated to the gear-drive & the exact valve train timing to the mechanical poisition of the crank, rod & piston at any RPM that the gears offer as some are sold on the chains & blocks.

If someone can stuff a Gear Drive Setup into an 03 or later cam chest with a runout in excess of the 0.003 maximum which they state is crucial why is it then the majority of the sales for gear drives is allocated for the TC engines built after 2002.

There is also significant evidence that not all riders are willing to give into the thought that .003 is the limit yet they still continue to operate without any hitches Mile after Mile - Kilometer after Kilometer. The evidence is face-forward in posts on your thread not to mention countless others on both forums.

The key is that if gears present a problem with your engine why would anyone settle for chains. If money or Worth the Cost is your anchor in a perspective that puts second best against first place I would have to ask why is this even a relentless topic. It is futile to consider especially when someone will spend 2800.00 on a set of wheels while the guts of the machine is running out of specs & settle for the nothing but the best for their engine. Better yet why would anyone even invest in a substandard set up.

If HD hasn't got the balls to correct their own FKUP I would never admit I don't have the wherewithall to correct it. I would eat hamburger helper for a month rather than run the alternative & spend my time trying to advocate that Chains & Plastic Blocks are cost effective

All anyone has to do is get geared uo for HD'S short-fall & get the engine running as it should have been done from the factory rather than buy Chinese clothing & chrome dodads on a substandard engine.



Cheers ...
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Last edited by Rollmeaway; 06-27-2012 at 09:09 PM. Reason: additional info
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Old 06-27-2012, 09:57 PM   #12 (permalink)
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I'm no expert but I don't think there is much advantage going to gear drive with the newer chain drive setup. Crank runout is bad either way. I just did cams on my '09, at 29,000 runout was .002 so I didn't tear into it. I'll just hope I got a good one and it stays that way???
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Old 06-27-2012, 10:01 PM   #13 (permalink)
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Dare, no problem with me at all. You and I are friends. Chains and blocks work very well on the new builds and in most cases the difference in HP in TQ is negliable and in most cases not cost effective for the cost of the change to gears unless you get them cheap like you did. But I admit that gear driven cams are better provided that everything else is in order to support them reliably. No hard feelings at all. I'm not quite clear on the differences in years in cranks and bearings and hope that someone more knowledgeable can answer that question soon. Regards to you my Canadian friend,

-Tutt
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Old 06-27-2012, 10:07 PM   #14 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 0ldhippie View Post
I'm no expert but I don't think there is much advantage going to gear drive with the newer chain drive setup. Crank runout is bad either way. I just did cams on my '09, at 29,000 runout was .002 so I didn't tear into it. I'll just hope I got a good one and it stays that way???
Fact is you'll always be wondering When When is the plastic going to fail not to mention that if you read up gears are by far a much more precise method of keeping your engine in time. Metal VS Plastic is what it all comes down to. I am sure you know the outcome over the longhaul.
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Old 06-27-2012, 10:14 PM   #15 (permalink)
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Dare, the newest cam chains and followers are very, very reliable and VERY durable. They are very different from the earlier model chain driven cams. I sure wish you could acknowledge that simple fact. Yes, the gear driven cams have more accuracy and may make a bit more HP and TQ under optimal circumstances but at the same time gear driven cams are very intolerable to changes in tolerances and that's all I want people to know. -Tutt
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Last edited by CowboyTutt; 06-27-2012 at 10:18 PM.
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