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Old 09-02-2008, 08:44 AM   #1 (permalink)
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Cam Timing??

Can someone explain when you should use plus/minus keys to change cam timing? Does it move the power band up and down the rpm range?
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Old 09-02-2008, 08:45 AM   #2 (permalink)
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I have Andrews 64gs waiting on sns for flywheels AGAIN
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Old 09-02-2008, 09:02 AM   #3 (permalink)
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When you advance a cam, it starts the powerband a couple hundred rpm sooner depending how much you advance it. The opposite is true for retarding the cam, but you very rarely see anyone retard a cam. If you need to retard a cam, chances are you would be better off with a larger cam to suit your needs. Advancing/Retarding cams does not compensate for a poorly chosen cam, but rather it fine tunes opening and closing events for a properly chosen cam. Keep in mind, when you advance a cam, you also increase cranking compression and bring valve to pistons closer together...make sure you check all to make sure it all clears when advancing cams or you can quickly turn a simple, quick job into a fairly expensive, frustrating venture.
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Old 09-02-2008, 09:59 AM   #4 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nighttrain67 View Post
you can quickly turn a simple, quick job into a fairly expensive, frustrating venture.
Ive had this happen before
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Old 09-02-2008, 10:37 AM   #5 (permalink)
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Cam timing

Quote:
Originally Posted by nighttrain67 View Post
When you advance a cam, it starts the powerband a couple hundred rpm sooner depending how much you advance it. The opposite is true for retarding the cam, but you very rarely see anyone retard a cam. If you need to retard a cam, chances are you would be better off with a larger cam to suit your needs. Advancing/Retarding cams does not compensate for a poorly chosen cam, but rather it fine tunes opening and closing events for a properly chosen cam. Keep in mind, when you advance a cam, you also increase cranking compression and bring valve to pistons closer together...make sure you check all to make sure it all clears when advancing cams or you can quickly turn a simple, quick job into a fairly expensive, frustrating venture.
Wow I didn't know it changes clearance!!!!!!!!
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Old 09-02-2008, 10:52 AM   #6 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arealinvestor View Post
Wow I didn't know it changes clearance!!!!!!!!

Sure does.....Any time you tighten up the intake centerline, you will have a tighter valve to piston (intake) clearance than that same cam with a wider intake centerline. Everything in the intake lobe event is happening a little earlier when the cam is advanced. For example, you put in a 4 degree advance and the cam reaches max intake lift 4 degrees sooner with the piston in the same position in the bore at max lift. The result is the intake valve to piston being a little closer than before the advance of the cams, and the exhaust valve being a little wider. If your on the ragged edge of intake valve to piston clearance before the advance, it could certainly cause problems. It is always better to be safe than sorry. If you know you have a ton of room, then chances are, you'll be ok.
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Last edited by nighttrain67; 09-02-2008 at 10:59 AM.
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Old 09-02-2008, 01:31 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Cam timing

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Originally Posted by nighttrain67 View Post
Sure does.....Any time you tighten up the intake centerline, you will have a tighter valve to piston (intake) clearance than that same cam with a wider intake centerline. Everything in the intake lobe event is happening a little earlier when the cam is advanced. For example, you put in a 4 degree advance and the cam reaches max intake lift 4 degrees sooner with the piston in the same position in the bore at max lift. The result is the intake valve to piston being a little closer than before the advance of the cams, and the exhaust valve being a little wider. If your on the ragged edge of intake valve to piston clearance before the advance, it could certainly cause problems. It is always better to be safe than sorry. If you know you have a ton of room, then chances are, you'll be ok.
Thanks!!!! If your running stock head gasket(with 4 degree advance) shouldn't there be enough room?Even with a high lift cam? or will there be a problem?
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Craig G.

2010 Ultra Classic Hot Rod Built & Tuned by JD's
BB & Baisley Hybrid Heads with man/Comp releases
Axtell Pistons & Cylinders set with high comp,Big CCP
Darkhorse Stroker Crank,balanced,plugged & welded
Woods A/C kit & Lifters
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High Flow HPI Inj & BB TBW Throttle body
D&D Boarzilla (perforated baffle)
Lenale cooling fan
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Old 09-02-2008, 01:36 PM   #8 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by arealinvestor View Post
Thanks!!!! If your running stock head gasket(with 4 degree advance) shouldn't there be enough room?Even with a high lift cam? or will there be a problem?

It all depends on the setup...ie. cams, piston design, depth of valve reliefs, ect. The safe advice would be to clay it, but generally you can advance 4 degrees without harm.
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Old 09-02-2008, 01:45 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Cam timing

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Originally Posted by nighttrain67 View Post
It all depends on the setup...ie. cams, piston design, depth of valve reliefs, ect. The safe advice would be to clay it, but generally you can advance 4 degrees without harm.
Thanks dude, I was thinking of getting a high lift cam with a later intake closing then advancing it 4 degrees with the stock motor,intake,head gasket & pistons.Then once i get the 124 take the advance out,then i will not have to change cams???????? Would this be smart? Are there any drawbacks to doing this????
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There is no replacement for displacement!!!!
Craig G.

2010 Ultra Classic Hot Rod Built & Tuned by JD's
BB & Baisley Hybrid Heads with man/Comp releases
Axtell Pistons & Cylinders set with high comp,Big CCP
Darkhorse Stroker Crank,balanced,plugged & welded
Woods A/C kit & Lifters
T-Man gear crank set
High Flow HPI Inj & BB TBW Throttle body
D&D Boarzilla (perforated baffle)
Lenale cooling fan
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Old 09-02-2008, 01:52 PM   #10 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arealinvestor View Post
Thanks dude, I was thinking of getting a high lift cam with a later intake closing then advancing it 4 degrees with the stock motor,intake,head gasket & pistons.Then once i get the 124 take the advance out,then i will not have to change cams???????? Would this be smart? Are there any drawbacks to doing this????
Yes there will be problems as your stock heads aren't setup for a high lift cam your springs will coil bind and you'll have to clearance for the cams or they will hit inside the cam chest...
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Old 09-02-2008, 01:54 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by arealinvestor View Post
Thanks dude, I was thinking of getting a high lift cam with a later intake closing then advancing it 4 degrees with the stock motor,intake,head gasket & pistons.Then once i get the 124 take the advance out,then i will not have to change cams???????? Would this be smart? Are there any drawbacks to doing this????

"Stock" as in an 88 or 96 inch motor?? If so, the difference in what cam will work with a stock motor (even with 4 deg. advance) and even a mild 124 would be much greater than the equivilant of a 4 degree advance. Any cam set that would work well on a 124, including the mildest of mild will be much too much cam for a stock motor. Your stock motor will be an absolute slug with a cam that would work well with a 124.....The bright side is if you do it, you will build that 124 that much faster because of your disapointment in your stock motors performance.
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Old 09-02-2008, 07:02 PM   #12 (permalink)
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Cam timing?

Quote:
Originally Posted by nighttrain67 View Post
"Stock" as in an 88 or 96 inch motor?? If so, the difference in what cam will work with a stock motor (even with 4 deg. advance) and even a mild 124 would be much greater than the equivilant of a 4 degree advance. Any cam set that would work well on a 124, including the mildest of mild will be much too much cam for a stock motor. Your stock motor will be an absolute slug with a cam that would work well with a 124.....The bright side is if you do it, you will build that 124 that much faster because of your disapointment in your stock motors performance.
I was thinking of something from woods with a 40-42 intake closing for the 124ci .10.5 or 11 to 1 comp (no more).Putting it in a stock 96 motor(of corse replacing the springs & rockers if need be)advancing the cam 4 degress which would give me a 36-38 intake close.That would be ok in a 96ci bagger.When the 124 is done take the advance out.This would allow me to keep the same cam?????????
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There is no replacement for displacement!!!!
Craig G.

2010 Ultra Classic Hot Rod Built & Tuned by JD's
BB & Baisley Hybrid Heads with man/Comp releases
Axtell Pistons & Cylinders set with high comp,Big CCP
Darkhorse Stroker Crank,balanced,plugged & welded
Woods A/C kit & Lifters
T-Man gear crank set
High Flow HPI Inj & BB TBW Throttle body
D&D Boarzilla (perforated baffle)
Lenale cooling fan
Jagg 10 row oil cooler
K&P engineering oil filter
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Old 09-02-2008, 07:08 PM   #13 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by arealinvestor View Post
I was thinking of something from woods with a 40-42 intake closing for the 124ci .10.5 or 11 to 1 comp (no more).Putting it in a stock 96 motor(of corse replacing the springs & rockers if need be)advancing the cam 4 degress which would give me a 36-38 intake close.That would be ok in a 96ci bagger.When the 124 is done take the advance out.This would allow me to keep the same cam?????????
That is a pretty early closing for a 10.5-11:1 124 inch motor. You would be needing race gas for that puppy. The wood cams that work well with the 124's close in the low to upper 50's that work super with 11:1 compression, which gives you around 200 ccp plus or minus. 40-42 closing would be much too tight, IMHO for a 124 with that kind of compression.
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Last edited by nighttrain67; 09-02-2008 at 07:12 PM.
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Old 09-02-2008, 07:21 PM   #14 (permalink)
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cam timing

Quote:
Originally Posted by nighttrain67 View Post
That is a pretty early closing for a 10.5-11:1 124 inch motor. You would be needing race gas for that puppy. The wood cams that work well with the 124's close in the low to upper 50's that work super with 11:1 compression, which gives you around 200 ccp plus or minus. 40-42 closing would be much too tight, IMHO for a 124 with that kind of compression.

Thanks something to think about!!!! I will ask builder in due time what he thinks!!!I thought it was doable.I want my bike to have down low grunt & tons of midrange.I dont want to late of an intake close(50 ish) and have all the power to far up the rpm range.
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There is no replacement for displacement!!!!
Craig G.

2010 Ultra Classic Hot Rod Built & Tuned by JD's
BB & Baisley Hybrid Heads with man/Comp releases
Axtell Pistons & Cylinders set with high comp,Big CCP
Darkhorse Stroker Crank,balanced,plugged & welded
Woods A/C kit & Lifters
T-Man gear crank set
High Flow HPI Inj & BB TBW Throttle body
D&D Boarzilla (perforated baffle)
Lenale cooling fan
Jagg 10 row oil cooler
K&P engineering oil filter
To much more to list!!!!!!
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Old 09-02-2008, 07:28 PM   #15 (permalink)
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Thanks something to think about!!!! I will ask builder in due time what he thinks!!!I thought it was doable.I want my bike to have down low grunt & tons of midrange.I dont want to late of an intake close(50 ish) and have all the power to far up the rpm range.
My previous 117 with Wood TW9FG's (52 close) was over 120 ft/lbs for the entire dyno pull at 11.3 compression. If you want a 124, you want to build it like a 124, not a 98 inch motor. Low 50's closing are perfect tq cams.
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