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Old 05-22-2008, 04:01 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Play in clutch basket assy Normal??

Been chasing a primary area noise for a while now. It started as a "whirring/whinnig" sound that would increase with RPM. didn,t matter if I was ideling in nuetral or crusing down the road. didn't matter hot or cold.

First thought was primary chain so I adusted primary chain several times as well as went with HB-125 auto chain tensioner to no avail. (maybe a litte better but still not right). Of course changed fluid as well.

Rode for a few weeks waiting for the new shoe on the HB-125 to break in as per the tech guy there.

Over the past few rides, the noise slowly seemed to add a slight vibration/knocking and deeper tone to the whining/ whirring sound.

I thought the next step was to check my comp nut. The comp nut seems tight with no signs of damage or play. I figured I would do the re-torqueing procedure anyway with the addition of the spacer while I was in there.

I moved on to inspect the clutch assy. I noticed that with the primary chain loose, I can press back and forth on either side of the ring gear and I have a slight amount play. enoung to make a slight clunk.

Is this normal?

could the bearing in the basket be toast causing my noise?

Any suggestions would be appreciated while I wait for my parts

P.S.
I cant break the nuts, I ordered a chain locker and the spacer for the comp nut and am waiting to tear down further.

2005 Softail Deluxe / 15K miles / stock

Last edited by calin; 05-22-2008 at 04:03 PM. Reason: added text
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Old 05-23-2008, 05:55 AM   #2 (permalink)
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Is it hard to down shift or find neutral. If so i would go ahead and pull the clutch basket and make sure the cir clip on the back of the hub has not came off and adding play to the inner hub and basket.also check the ball retainers around the ball bearings. Hope this helps . Booggerbe
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Old 05-23-2008, 07:50 AM   #3 (permalink)
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I had a problem similar to this. In neutral running with clutch pulled in the whirring would go away. When I let the clutch out in neutral the noise would come back. My rear primary bearing was bad. Replaced under warranty at about 4500 miles. I guess this was an issue on some 2006 Dynas.
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Old 05-23-2008, 10:45 AM   #4 (permalink)
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Not sure about your play. Does the basket more in and out? Or does it just clunk when rotating it forward and back? First might be an issue, second is OK.

Pykeslayer has in important clue. Is the sound there when in gear stopped? This tells you what side the noise is on, the drive side or the driven side.

I put the stock tensioner back in til you identify the noise.


Bruce
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Old 05-23-2008, 12:13 PM   #5 (permalink)
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Thanks in advance to all for the information...

Bruce - There is no play in and out, just clunk when rotating it forward and back. I will check inside when I get the tools I need. I hope that's it....this is driving me crazy.

Can you explain more about what you mean when you say "Is the sound there when in gear stopped?"


Pikeslayer - The noise remains no matter what I do with the clutch/transmission. I can rev the motor in neutral or in any gear, with clutch in or out and the noise just follows the engine rpm.

Booggerbe - yes, it is difficult to find neutral when I am stopped, but I can pop it in easily as I slow down
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Old 05-23-2008, 12:23 PM   #6 (permalink)
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You said it made the noise when sitting in neutral and the bike is stopped. Does it ake any noise while sitting in gear, the bike stopped and clutch pulled in? This will tell you if it's on the primary side or tranny side of the clutch.

As far as getting a jam bar, a piece of 6061 t-6 1x 1/4 alumimum bar cut to 9 1/2 inches works just fine on a softail.

1 1/2 for the crank. 1 3/16 for the clutch. Clutch bit is LH thread.

I like to cut the crank socket so that it is flat across the face ( some have a tapered lead in) as the nut is kind of short. I use a lathe but you could grind it with a disk grinder.

Bruce
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Old 05-23-2008, 06:07 PM   #7 (permalink)
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the noise is present in all configurations.

I will take your advice and grind my socket flush.

If I want to eliminate the motor, can I take the Primary chain system off and start the bike?

If the noise is still present it must be in the motor....
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Old 05-23-2008, 07:55 PM   #8 (permalink)
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"If I want to eliminate the motor, can I take the Primary chain system off and start the bike?"

Well you could but it would require a starting cart..

Remember the primary chain need to be present so that the ring gear can drive the clutch side chain.. You could start the bike and pull the side cover(drain the primary), should be able to hear the sound real good if it's in the primary.

You can also use a mechanic's stethoscope (sp) and listen for the sound. The sound might be coming from the balancer chain?

You might want to pull the rotor and make sure nothing cam loose in there.

Good luck,

Bruce
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Old 05-24-2008, 12:07 AM   #9 (permalink)
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Yeah I guess I would need the chain on to start! LOL DOH

Thanks, will do everything suggested and report back
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Old 05-25-2008, 03:29 AM   #10 (permalink)
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P.S.
I cant break the nuts, I ordered a chain locker and the spacer for the comp nut and am waiting to tear down further.


Here is another tool you might make without having to purchase the items you mentioned above to lock down the compensating gear and the clutch basket to break loose the compensating nut and the clutch hub nut, I had one made for $11.00 with tax:

http://www.harleyhog.co.uk/belt%20install%202.htm

Did you get those nuts off yet....if not you might try a 32" - 36" long pipe, I had one cut at an IRON shop for another $10.00. Took the "breaker" tool I was going to use to break the nuts with me to make sure what I purchased wouldn't be too big or too small....also made sure it would fit over the 150 lbs torque wrench I was going to use to assist with tightening the compensating nut....my bike is a 2002, so I use the "torque" procedures for twin cams prior to 2003. You should be able to breakthat compensating nut with the pipe extension, perhaps have a buddy sit on the bike and hold the brake as well....

Remember there is an alignment procedure in the service manual to be at the side of the compensating sprocket and at the side of the clutch basket....if those two are out of alignment you might get the issue you are experiencing.....becareful just throwing spacers in there without checking this out as well and confirming that all is well...this procedure is talked about in your service manual.

If you do put on a new "tensioner" shoe in the primary remember that you have to readjust it 500 miles into the change over as well....then it should settle down and be fine.

Remember too to throughly "clean" the splines where the compensating sprocket will tighten to as well as the clutch hub nut and put Thread Locker Red #262 2 drops on threads for the compensating sprocket nut 1 1/2" as well as the clutch basket spline for the clutch hub nut 1 3/16". After tightening you should wait 24 hours to allow the red loctite /threadlocker to cure properly before sealing it up and throwing your fluid in there.

Other's here are much more skilled at diagnosis than myself.....I hope you get it figured out soon and will keep us all posted with the results of what is/was causing your issues.....it helps all to learn....lol especially me....lol

Regards,

"ClassicRider"
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Old 05-26-2008, 10:21 AM   #11 (permalink)
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Thanks ClassicRider!

I got both nuts loose last night. I came home from traveling and my locking tool had come in the mail. That and a peice of long pipe and they came loose. I was dissapointed that they were very tight, I can now hope I see something wrong as I remove the primary.

Deep down inside I am afraid it is the crank bearing.

will post later when I can get back to it this afternoon.

thanks again for all the help

tom
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Old 05-26-2008, 01:06 PM   #12 (permalink)
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As i said you need to check the ball bearing in the inner clutch hub. enough said. Booggerbe
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Old 05-27-2008, 08:10 AM   #13 (permalink)
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Booggerbe,
The bearing seems to look and spin normally. While I have itr torn down, I am giong to install a 24 tooh Comp sprocket and a 37 tooth clutch basket.

I assume that I will also need to change the bearing as well. I just need to find the part number. I will replace it rather than press it out then back in.

thanks for the input
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Old 05-27-2008, 09:39 AM   #14 (permalink)
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Calin....
The HD bearing being used there is a Koyo 5207 CD3 FG (black shiny covering is "polyamite" which is a type of phenolic covering.) It's a Double Row Angular Contact Ball Bearing running on a 24 degree axis. It is HD# 37906-90. Cost is $61.99 retail but from a 20% discount HD Dealer you will pay approximately $49.00 + shipping.

I would (personally), and do definitely agree with your comment about replacing the bearing.....and as Boogerbe suggests this bearing may be the culpret and still may have some participation in what you are hearing....

It seems there is very little information about what many are doing in regards to the pressing out and into the "radial" angular bearing. For your information this bearing is not an axial (thrust) bearing, thus it doesn't take much to "side load" to ruin the bearing. Since you may be deciding to press out your "current" stock clutch hub HD# 37550-98 from your "current" clutch basket it does present a potential problem to the bearing. Anytime one presses the bearing into the clutch hub there is no problem as you introduce the pressure onto the outer race. When you press the clutch hub into the bearing, you support the inner race and press the clutch hub. After that, to remove the clutch "hub", there is no way to support the inner race and you can't get to the retaining ring for the outer race to remove it. Your only option is to press the clutch "hub" out of the bearing which puts significant side load on the balls and races and MAY cause flat spots depending on the amount of pressure needed. Only as a last resort would I ever consider reusing the bearing.....thus it seems a logical thing to do which sounds extreme perhaps is to "potentially" replace the bearing....So since I have been dealing recently with the "modification" of going from the 3.15 gearing also to the 3.37 gearing in my 2002 RKC, I have been reviewing the actual bearing HD is using....Be aware that there are many choices for different bearings....HD chose to use, obviously cooling the bearing via the primary fluid being "slushed" on to it as it is an "open faced" or "unsealed" bearing.... The Koyo 5207 bearing is considered a "PHENOLIC" bearing which basically identifies that the bearing has a sheet made from a resin and is a hard dense material which covers th e bearings in part....if you have one of the 'bearings' in front of you, you will see a "black" shiny surface material in the center that wraps the bearing....this material is referred to as "polyamite". I WILL say that obviously it hasn't been reported that I am familar with that anyone has had a "particular" problem with HD's# 37906-90 bearing which is once again for emphasis the KOYO 5207 CD3 FG Double Row Angular Contact Ball Bearing, of which the Bore Diameter is 35 milmeters, Outside Diameter 72 milmeters, and the Overall Width 27 milmeters. After doing all of the research about different bearings to use, I have come to the conclusion to simply continue on the path with HD using the HD# 37906-90 Koyo 5207 CDE FG bearing.

So....deep breath what does all of this mean, when it comes to the bearing...it means you must reach a conclusion as to whether or not you feel it warrants changing out your bearing......some will say no, some will say definitely.......all I wanted to do was inform you of your choices and what you might consider....

Regardless of the path that you choose, be sure to PROPERLY adjust the primary chain as over tightening will cause shortened bearing life.

Personally I do agree as mentioned above, that replacing the bearing would be a smart choice. Also you might give some credence to actually purchasing a second HD# 37550-98 clutch hub (retail price $133.00 -20% discount from a 20% Discount HD Dealer aprx $108.00) and because you have the potential of a "problem" with your current HD bearing purchasing even a second HD# 37906-90 bearing which would allow you to do all of this pressing out of the bearing and pressing on of the bearing and making two quick change clutch basket assemblies so if you decide to jump back to the 3.15 gearing your not going through the eventual bearing replacement at that time....the only thing required is moving the "guts" of the clutch assembly into the clutch hub, back and forth if you so choose without dealing with the issues of the bearing in the future....of course in this example you have spent $160.00 and may never go back to your 3.15 gearing and have that "capital" simply sitting on your shelf collecting dust....I chose to purchase a new bearing and a new clutch hub and not "disturb" my stock clutch assembly by pressing out the stock "clutch hub" out of the bearing...if I WERE to ever to choose to go back to the 3.15 gearing I can do so easily without any pressing in or out and at that point I have saved some time and have the freedom of going back and forth with no continual replacement of the bearing....lol it makes sense to me...

Regards,

"ClassicRider"

Last edited by ClassicRider; 05-27-2008 at 09:50 AM.
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Old 05-27-2008, 09:59 AM   #15 (permalink)
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Calin....

By the way you didn't mention whether or not you were purchasing a "new clutch shell basket" HD# 37846-99A (37 Tooth) or whether you have or will purchase a "gently used or previously owned" clutch shell basket. If you are purchasing new, the clutch shell basket arrives to you with the HD# 37906-90 5207 CD3 FG Koyo Bearing already pressed into the clutch shell. Thus it removes the need to purchase another bearing for that transformation. However if you are purchasing a "gently used or previously owned" clutch shell basket then MOST likely it too will come with the HD# 37906-90 5207 CD3 FG Koyo Bearing already in place as well, BUT.....obviously someone else has ALREADY pressed OUT the clutch hub (unless you purchase a set up from someone that has not removed the clutch hub) as I mentioned above and you're faced with the replacement of a new bearing into the clutch shell for the logical reasons I stipulated above.....as you can see it's a bit of a puzzle.

Regards,

"ClassicRider"

Last edited by ClassicRider; 05-27-2008 at 04:50 PM.
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