Dealer flash/Xieds

[60wt]

Have read a LOT of posts on the Xieds/02ied , I get most of it but still a little confused...I have a 07 FLHR stock except for better flowing mufflers and have been running the XIEDS for a few thousand miles and are quite happy with them...BUT for the Quest for MORE I installed the SE air kit, (since I already have one and would like to use it)and with a quick twist of the throttle (out of closed loop) I get a SLIGHT PING, I realise this is normal...so any way I am considering a DEALER FLASH to compliment the XIEDs.. SO the question I would like to ask you guys that have a grip on the subject and for a SIMPLE answer...Would FREE FLOW MUFFS - SE AIR - XIEDS - DEALER FLASH be a GOOD COMBO to solve the TOO lean mixture in open loop and/or for ALL AROUND performance??? Not looking for a miracle, just something decent..(just confused myself, I hope I got the loops in the right order)

[DoomBuggy]

It is what I am planning to do for the rest of this season. Then next year I will add a set of cams and a tuner. After that who knows.........

[claydbal]

60 wt. ever hear the expression "throwing good money after bad"?

that is your plan. you WILL need a TUNING DEVICE for your bike . bite the bullet now and when you upgrade, that is one thing you wont have to shell out more clams for.

[nubdl]

I have the nighrider IEDs. I had alot of vibration and rough Idle in Hot weather, parade Mode, cutting off the back cylinder. I replaced the straight exhaust pipes, Tedds. For the Vance Hines Ovals, Had the Dealer instakll the SE air cleaner, and also the Stage 1 download. The 08 road king runs like a scared rabbit. This defineitely helped my road king run smother. You definitely need the Stage 1download with the air cleaner and pipes, or the power commander.

[Mr. Clean]

60wt:

Since you already have the XIED's you do not NEED the dealer's Stage 1 download for your bike to run richer. The Stage 1 download does have some adjustment to the timing which may or may not help with your pinging issue. The other additional thing it will give you is a 6200 RPM limit instead of the stock 5500 RPM limit.

If you have a few minutes to read, here is a post I wrote a couple of months ago which may help your understanding of open loop/closed loop:

The 2006 Dyna Series and all of the 2007 and 2008 Harleys are fuel injected and have oxygen sensors in the exhaust pipes to control and limit emission in compliance with EPA regulations. The maximum legal air fuel ratio is 14.7:1. This is very lean and as a result, these bikes tend to run hotter than earlier bikes.

For these 96" twin cam motors, the factory ECM operates in 2 modes - closed loop and open loop. In closed loop the O2 sensors tell the ECM how rich or lean the exhaust gases are and the ECM adjusts the fuel flow to each cylinder to maintain the A/F at 14.7:1. Closed loop only works in the range where the throttle is open from 0% to about 40%. This is where most of us ride normally. Above about 40% throttle, such as at high cruising speeds or fast acceleration, the ECM operates in open loop mode and the O2 sensors have no effect. The ECM then gets signals from other sensors in the engine and it does a decent job adjusting the A/F to a much richer range than 14.7:1.

On these bikes adding an air cleaner and mufflers that flow better than stock causes the bike to run leaner than 14.7:1, resulting in a hotter running engine. The ECM and the O2 Sensors can no longer adjust the closed loop A/F ratio back to 14.7. On my bike the A/F was 15.1 in closed loop mode after adding these two items. You need to do something else to correct the lean running. The Harley Stage 1 download adjusts the timing, raises the rev limiter from, I believe, 5500 RPM to 6200 RPM and somehow (but no one knows for certain how it does this) brings the Air/Fuel ratio back to the legal limit of 14.7:1.

If you want a little more performance than stock and are concerned about maintaining your warranty, I recommend the SE A/C, the SE street legal slip-on mufflers and the dealer installed Stage 1 download. From my personal experience, this setup definitely provides some performance benefit. However, it does not provide any cooling benefit over a stock bike.

Unless you are planning to go beyond a new exhaust and air cleaner with your bike, you really only need to concern yourself with richening the closed loop mode.

There are many ways to get your bike to run richer (ie: cooler) and there are as many different opinions as to how to best accomplish this as there are Harley riders. If you are not concerned about maintaining your warranty, you can skip the Stage 1 download and just go with one of the popular methods, some of which are mentioned below.

On the '07 & '08 bikes, the least expensive way to get the bike to run cooler (and easiest to install or remove) is to add the Nightrider O2 IED's or the XIED's. The O2 IED's will slightly richen the closed loop A/F to 14.2:1. The XIED's will richen the closed loop A/F to 13.8:1. These only affect the closed loop mode. Either of these will make your bike run cooler. You can use them with or without the Stage 1 download.

Disclaimer: I have no financial interest whatsoever in Nightrider. I am only a happy customer with a cooler running bike.

As I said above, many people have many opinions on how to make their bike run cooler and/or better. Your choices depend on how deep your pockets are. You can have your dealer install a SERT and set up your bike on a dyno, You can add a PC III, or a V&H Fuel Pak or other similar devices made by other companies. Some of these may require dyno tuning to set them up properly. Another choice might be a Twin Max or other similar device that is self programming.

Some of these are add-ons to the factory ECM and others replace the factory ECM. Some of these use the factory O2 sensors and others require you to disable, remove or replace the factory O2 sensors.

[johNTO]

Originally Posted by 60wt

and with a quick twist of the throttle (out of closed loop) I get a SLIGHT PING, I realise this is normal...

Perhaps too obvious, but have you tried a higher octane gas for the ping?
My '08SG has SE slipons, S&S Teardrop AC, Fullsac's TD kit, and XiED's. I get no pinging at WOT on 93 octane.
My buddy's '07SG had the SERT, SE AC, V&H slipons...bike ran fine but he still complained about the heat in closed loop. I got him a set of iED's and he's happy than a pig in (well you know). He also mentioned the bike smoothened right out at idle speeds.
My other buddy is running Reinhart's TD, S&S Teardrop AC, and iED's on his '08SG without and pinging.
Nightrider's wires have been very good to us and our bikes!

[claydbal]

Originally Posted by Mr. Clean

60wt:

Since you already have the XIED's you do not NEED the dealer's Stage 1 download for your bike to run richer. The Stage 1 download does have some adjustment to the timing which may or may not help with your pinging issue. The other additional thing it will give you is a 6200 RPM limit instead of the stock 5500 RPM limit.

If you have a few minutes to read, here is a post I wrote a couple of months ago which may help your understanding of open loop/closed loop:

The 2006 Dyna Series and all of the 2007 and 2008 Harleys are fuel injected and have oxygen sensors in the exhaust pipes to control and limit emission in compliance with EPA regulations. The maximum legal air fuel ratio is 14.7:1. This is very lean and as a result, these bikes tend to run hotter than earlier bikes.

For these 96" twin cam motors, the factory ECM operates in 2 modes - closed loop and open loop. In closed loop the O2 sensors tell the ECM how rich or lean the exhaust gases are and the ECM adjusts the fuel flow to each cylinder to maintain the A/F at 14.7:1. Closed loop only works in the range where the throttle is open from 0% to about 40%. This is where most of us ride normally. Above about 40% throttle, such as at high cruising speeds or fast acceleration, the ECM operates in open loop mode and the O2 sensors have no effect. The ECM then gets signals from other sensors in the engine and it does a decent job adjusting the A/F to a much richer range than 14.7:1.

On these bikes adding an air cleaner and mufflers that flow better than stock causes the bike to run leaner than 14.7:1, resulting in a hotter running engine. The ECM and the O2 Sensors can no longer adjust the closed loop A/F ratio back to 14.7. On my bike the A/F was 15.1 in closed loop mode after adding these two items. You need to do something else to correct the lean running. The Harley Stage 1 download adjusts the timing, raises the rev limiter from, I believe, 5500 RPM to 6200 RPM and somehow (but no one knows for certain how it does this) brings the Air/Fuel ratio back to the legal limit of 14.7:1.

If you want a little more performance than stock and are concerned about maintaining your warranty, I recommend the SE A/C, the SE street legal slip-on mufflers and the dealer installed Stage 1 download. From my personal experience, this setup definitely provides some performance benefit. However, it does not provide any cooling benefit over a stock bike.

Unless you are planning to go beyond a new exhaust and air cleaner with your bike, you really only need to concern yourself with richening the closed loop mode.

There are many ways to get your bike to run richer (ie: cooler) and there are as many different opinions as to how to best accomplish this as there are Harley riders. If you are not concerned about maintaining your warranty, you can skip the Stage 1 download and just go with one of the popular methods, some of which are mentioned below.

On the '07 & '08 bikes, the least expensive way to get the bike to run cooler (and easiest to install or remove) is to add the Nightrider O2 IED's or the XIED's. The O2 IED's will slightly richen the closed loop A/F to 14.2:1. The XIED's will richen the closed loop A/F to 13.8:1. These only affect the closed loop mode. Either of these will make your bike run cooler. You can use them with or without the Stage 1 download.

Disclaimer: I have no financial interest whatsoever in Nightrider. I am only a happy customer with a cooler running bike.

As I said above, many people have many opinions on how to make their bike run cooler and/or better. Your choices depend on how deep your pockets are. You can have your dealer install a SERT and set up your bike on a dyno, You can add a PC III, or a V&H Fuel Pak or other similar devices made by other companies. Some of these may require dyno tuning to set them up properly. Another choice might be a Twin Max or other similar device that is self programming.

Some of these are add-ons to the factory ECM and others replace the factory ECM. Some of these use the factory O2 sensors and others require you to disable, remove or replace the factory O2 sensors.

okay----you wrote it and it is misleading. care to tell us who you are? story sounds like a donny peterson last minute diatribe.

[Whamrick]

Originally Posted by claydbal

okay----you wrote it and it is misleading. care to tell us who you are? story sounds like a donny peterson last minute diatribe.

Seems like if you're going to question it, it's up to you to say why it's misleading. Sounds pretty logical to me.

[claydbal]

Originally Posted by Whamrick

Seems like if you're going to question it, it's up to you to say why it's misleading. Sounds pretty logical to me.

you would have to understand tuning to understand me.

[Mr. Clean]

claydbal:

I am not going to get into a lengthy discussion with you about who I am and what my experience and training is.

I own a 2007 Road King and have experimented with different air cleaners and slipons. I have tried the IED's and the XIED's and have had my bike dynoed before and after some of the changes.

My post is based primarily on my personal experiences.

I wrote this a couple of months ago and posted it on two other discussion boards since then and you are the first person to state it was misleading.

Tell me specifically what is misleading in my post. If I made an error, I will correct it and apologize.

[claydbal]

Originally Posted by Mr. Clean

60wt:

Since you already have the XIED's you do not NEED the dealer's Stage 1 download for your bike to run richer. The Stage 1 download does have some adjustment to the timing which may or may not help with your pinging issue. The other additional thing it will give you is a 6200 RPM limit instead of the stock 5500 RPM limit.

If you have a few minutes to read, here is a post I wrote a couple of months ago which may help your understanding of open loop/closed loop:

The 2006 Dyna Series and all of the 2007 and 2008 Harleys are fuel injected and have oxygen sensors in the exhaust pipes to control and limit emission in compliance with EPA regulations. The maximum legal air fuel ratio is 14.7:1. This is very lean and as a result, these bikes tend to run hotter than earlier bikes.

For these 96" twin cam motors, the factory ECM operates in 2 modes - closed loop and open loop. In closed loop the O2 sensors tell the ECM how rich or lean the exhaust gases are and the ECM adjusts the fuel flow to each cylinder to maintain the A/F at 14.7:1. Closed loop only works in the range where the throttle is open from 0% to about 40%.

but not always, a long steep grade for exaple

This is where most of us ride normally. Above about 40% throttle, such as at high cruising speeds or fast acceleration, the ECM operates in open loop mode and the O2 sensors have no effect. The ECM then gets signals from other sensors in the engine and it does a decent job adjusting the A/F to a much richer range than 14.7:1.

it reverts to the open loop map in the ECM

On these bikes adding an air cleaner and mufflers that flow better than stock causes the bike to run leaner than 14.7:1,
who knows in open loop, unless you monitor afr
resulting in a hotter running engine. The ECM and the O2 Sensors can no longer adjust the closed loop A/F ratio back to 14.7. On my bike the A/F was 15.1 in closed loop mode after adding these two items. You need to do something else to correct the lean running. The Harley Stage 1 download adjusts the timing, raises the rev limiter from, I believe, 5500 RPM to 6200 RPM and somehow (but no one knows for certain how it does this) brings the Air/Fuel ratio back to the legal limit of 14.7:1.

sometimes this is true, depending on mods

If you want a little more performance than stock and are concerned about maintaining your warranty,
maggusen-moss act covers that for us I recommend the SE A/C, the SE street legal slip-on mufflers and the dealer installed Stage 1 download. From my personal experience, this setup definitely provides some performance benefit. However, it does not provide any cooling benefit over a stock bike.

on the fence about this, the new timing tables from stage1 may help cooling?

Unless you are planning to go beyond a new exhaust and air cleaner with your bike, you really only need to concern yourself with richening the closed loop mode.

this is the biggy!!!! you need to tune front/rear cylinders seperately, time cylinders seperatly (EFI) or dial in timing on carbed bikes

There are many ways to get your bike to run richer (ie: cooler) and there are as many different opinions as to how to best accomplish this as there are Harley riders. If you are not concerned about maintaining your warranty, you can skip the Stage 1 download and just go with one of the popular methods, some of which are mentioned below.

again, magnussen moss protects us from the warranty scare tactics-----tune the bike, you will be less likely to need warranty anyway

On the '07 & '08 bikes, the least expensive way to get the bike to run cooler (and easiest to install or remove) is to add the Nightrider O2 IED's or the XIED's. The O2 IED's will slightly richen the closed loop A/F to 14.2:1.

depending on build, show us a dyno run including the afr before and after IED install

The XIED's will richen the closed loop A/F to 13.8:1. see above

These only affect the closed loop mode.

so, what is happening in open loop without being tuned? could we not be okay in closed loop while frying pistons in open loop? after all, these miracle 50 cent resistors only help in closed loop mode

Either of these will make your bike run cooler. You can use them with or without the Stage 1 download.

Disclaimer: I have no financial interest whatsoever in Nightrider. I am only a happy customer with a cooler running bike.

As I said above, many people have many opinions on how to make their bike run cooler and/or better. Your choices depend on how deep your pockets are. You can have your dealer install a SERT and set up your bike on a dyno, You can add a PC III, or a V&H Fuel Pak

another example of throwing good money away

or other similar devices made by other companies. Some of these may require dyno tuning to set them up properly. Another choice might be a Twin Max or other similar device that is self programming.

Some of these are add-ons to the factory ECM and others replace the factory ECM. Some of these use the factory O2 sensors and others require you to disable, remove or replace the factory O2 sensors.

man, i am not here to bust your balls. you asked what was misleading and i gave a quick summary. when not stirring the pot or goofing off, i take pride in helping folks get the best for their hard earned money---------------------and occasionally dispelling snake oil stories.

you cam PM me and i can take a good rant, i will even give you my number.

peace
dennis

[dynadad]

Hey 60WT. The IEDS work good. They pull the AFR to a 14.2 . They are a cheaper that a PC 111 , V/H fuel pak. And if you want a HD download you still come out cheaper than if you buy one of these other things. Plus that 6200 rpm helps. Your post is on target. Dont pay Mr Claydbal any attention . He got something to say about everything. Mostly a bunch of negitive crap, From exploding cranks to the IEDs. Nightrider has sold countless IEDs. Steve is in the know. Call him he is staight shooter.

[claydbal]

gee, i feel soooooooooooooooooooo




stalked.

[Mr. Clean]

claydbal:

Sent you a PM

[claydbal]

Originally Posted by Mr. Clean

claydbal:

Sent you a PM

skimmed it then marked it unread. it is quite long and i have to get to church. will reply after noon.