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Old 07-21-2005, 01:02 AM   #1 (permalink)
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Stage 1 Breather Kit vs Stock A/C

Does anyone here have the technical specs for the HD Stage 1 breather kit? Is there a 'CFM' rating for this? What's the rating for the stock football breather? I changed out the stock HD filter element for a K&N element the other day, but really don't feel any difference. Have about 7000 miles on an 04 R/K Custom and want a bit more kick out of it on a limited budget.

From what I've read so far, people don't get that excited about the Stage 1 breather. For more HP/Torque on a stock motor, it appears to be more about the exhaust system (2 into 1's) and EFI mods/mapping.

In the dark....
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Old 07-21-2005, 03:21 AM   #2 (permalink)
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The two work in concert with each other, a better breathing air cleaner doesn't help much if the exhaust can't exit quicker. It's the "more in, more out" theory. The K&N stock filter doesn't add much unless you modify the backplate to allow more flow. You'll need to rejet or remap to rectify the lean condition with the new freer flowing setup. Not sure what the CFM ratings of the stage 1 air cleaners are but it's quite an increase over stock.
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Old 07-21-2005, 03:47 AM   #3 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gulfstream
The two work in concert with each other, a better breathing air cleaner doesn't help much if the exhaust can't exit quicker. It's the "more in, more out" theory. The K&N stock filter doesn't add much unless you modify the backplate to allow more flow. You'll need to rejet or remap to rectify the lean condition with the new freer flowing setup. Not sure what the CFM ratings of the stage 1 air cleaners are but it's quite an increase over stock.

When you say 'backplate', are you speaking of the black football (oval) shaped plate that the filter fits inside of? Then the outside chromed cover mates to it....

Yah. Understand the in/out concept. Just tryin to get a handle on what the actual difference is between the stock setup and the stage 1 a/c.

From what I have been able to see, the inlets INTO the football are much larger that the throat of the throttle body - so, I'm confused where the difference is and wondering if Stage 1 a/c is just marketing hype. Next trip to the parts counter I'll have to inspect one myself....

Thanks -

Last edited by 2004-FLHRSI; 07-22-2005 at 08:46 AM.
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Old 07-22-2005, 08:53 AM   #4 (permalink)
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Does someone have a picture of the Stage 1 kit broken down? Part number of the filter element?

I noted a couple decel pops since installing the K&N filter.

Oh - am I in the wrong forum?? Me=FNG.
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Old 07-22-2005, 10:15 AM   #5 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2004-FLHRSI
Does someone have a picture of the Stage 1 kit broken down? Part number of the filter element?

I noted a couple decel pops since installing the K&N filter.

Oh - am I in the wrong forum?? Me=FNG.
I have an 05 FXDWGI and will have in a few weeks a K&N filter drop-in, the ECM reflash, and 16 Gauge Double Barrel exhaust. I will report on the results. I am looking for a crisper response, clean running, not really big HP numbers. I am trying the drop-in filter with the stock "football" first (with ECM & exhaust) so I don't get too lean, just my opinion.

But, I can tell you this, I don't think you will get a correct result, and with EFI, you need to do a complete change to have it work, meaning more air in (filter), more fuel in (ECM reflash), and more air out (exhaust). These things should make it run a little crisper and a little better low end feel. Not major, but should "refine" what is there.

Also, I think if you get a really big airflow A/C increase, then you may be too lean even with the ECM reflash, so then you are looking at a more significant fuel increase, then cams, etc. maybe. Where do you stop?

So, do you want a little better running bike, or do you want to make big power? Either way make sure it will work as designed, everything has to work "in concert" so to speak.
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Old 07-22-2005, 10:16 AM   #6 (permalink)
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It's on the Harley website.

Basically it's just a new metal backplate (smaller than stock and round), new breather tubes that fit into said backplate, and a new cone filter.



My stock AC never got as hot as the Stage I AC, but the bike seems to run a lot smoother... with the new pipes and the PCIIIUSB.
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Old 07-22-2005, 10:49 AM   #7 (permalink)
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So, from the pix, the old backplate filter and tubes get scrapped, the new stuff mounts and the chrome outer portion of the football covers it up like a facade. And there's a new SE logo plate...

The complete filter itself is open and exposed?

Thanks.

Quote:
Originally Posted by czar
It's on the Harley website.

Basically it's just a new metal backplate (smaller than stock and round), new breather tubes that fit into said backplate, and a new cone filter.



My stock AC never got as hot as the Stage I AC, but the bike seems to run a lot smoother... with the new pipes and the PCIIIUSB.
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Old 07-22-2005, 10:53 AM   #8 (permalink)
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It's unrestricted behind the football cover. Not "exposed" to view. Hope that's what you were asking.
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Old 07-22-2005, 10:55 AM   #9 (permalink)
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Yup, the filter is just exposed and covered by the cover. I bought a
Stage I kit online from HD of Greenville, SC (A couples hours away from where I live) for $125.
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Old 07-22-2005, 10:59 AM   #10 (permalink)
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BTW, there is no cheap way around it, that's why some folks call it "paying the Harley tax".
Your first step just needs to be a minumum of Stage I AC (or equivalent, Ness Big Sucker, etc., it's not hype), better flowing mufflers and either a Stage I download, which is a crapshoot, or a SE Race Tuner, Power Commander, or some other device to add fuel. Otherwise, there is no performance gain to be had worth mentioning.
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Old 07-22-2005, 02:07 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Remapping cost

The parts are jut over $100. The dealer tells me that i can install a Phase 1 without changing the pipes. I will need the remap.
This is where HD loses me. They want $250 for a 10 minute hookup to a laptop for the "Remap". What a concept! Labour included I will not get out the door for much less than $500 for a change of aircleaner. I think this is the greatest ripoff ever even for HD. It is possible to build a strong motor from the getgo and they should be delivering a better bike for the big bucks they charge.
I plan to continue running stock until I decide on a 95 vs 103 inch or just go out and buy a Victory or Kawi Meanstreak which both blow Harleys away.
By the way, this is not my first Harley, but it is going to be the last-they suck your money faster than a toilet sucks ____!
Other companies are producing a better finished product which haul ass for a lot less money and we would not need to talk cams, Ph 1& 2, pipes, remaps or engine changeups the minute we roll out of the showroom.
HD is not getting much more of my hardearned cash.
Ahhhh! Now I feel better.
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Old 07-22-2005, 04:20 PM   #12 (permalink)
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Air Cleaner Flow Ratings

Here's the numbers on a few of the popular offerings:
ratings in cubic feet per minute
stock hd 165.5
cci/halebob 197.5
dragtron 243.3
force 262.2
with cover 250.8
cci/siren 330.1
h-d s.e. 421.8
zippers 455.6
ness big sucker stage I 483.1
rivera smoothie 499.8
cci/cyclesmith 516.9
ness big sucker stage II 579.7

Now, from the SERT manual, or physics class, whichever, an 88 cubic inch engine, running at 5600 RPM at full throttle, has a theoretical airflow capacity (VE) of 100%, when it flows 143 cubic feet of air per minute. Stock ECU maps are based on that. Increasing air inlet and outlet increases VE. So, if the same engine flowed 157 cfm at WOT and 5600 RPM, it would have a VE of 110%. So, you'd be lean. If you go to 95 cu. in. you are right out of the ballpark.
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Old 07-22-2005, 04:26 PM   #13 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ELECTROSTATIC
Here's the numbers on a few of the popular offerings:
ratings in cubic feet per minute
stock hd 165.5
cci/halebob 197.5
dragtron 243.3
force 262.2
with cover 250.8
cci/siren 330.1
h-d s.e. 421.8
zippers 455.6
ness big sucker stage I 483.1
rivera smoothie 499.8
cci/cyclesmith 516.9
ness big sucker stage II 579.7

Now, from the SERT manual, or physics class, whichever, an 88 cubic inch engine, running at 5600 RPM at full throttle, has a theoretical airflow capacity (VE) of 100%, when it flows 143 cubic feet of air per minute. Stock ECU maps are based on that. Increasing air inlet and outlet increases VE. So, if the same engine flowed 157 cfm at WOT and 5600 RPM, it would have a VE of 110%. So, you'd be lean. If you go to 95 cu. in. you are right out of the ballpark.
Do you have a formula to plug numbers into? It'd be nice to know how much my scoot can suck at max rpm and then make sure the A/C can let it in.
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Old 07-22-2005, 04:31 PM   #14 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by styff1
The parts are jut over $100. The dealer tells me that i can install a Phase 1 without changing the pipes. I will need the remap.
This is where HD loses me. They want $250 for a 10 minute hookup to a laptop for the "Remap". What a concept! Labour included I will not get out the door for much less than $500 for a change of aircleaner. I think this is the greatest ripoff ever even for HD. It is possible to build a strong motor from the getgo and they should be delivering a better bike for the big bucks they charge.
I plan to continue running stock until I decide on a 95 vs 103 inch or just go out and buy a Victory or Kawi Meanstreak which both blow Harleys away.
By the way, this is not my first Harley, but it is going to be the last-they suck your money faster than a toilet sucks ____!
Other companies are producing a better finished product which haul ass for a lot less money and we would not need to talk cams, Ph 1& 2, pipes, remaps or engine changeups the minute we roll out of the showroom.
HD is not getting much more of my hardearned cash.
Ahhhh! Now I feel better.
I would NOT get the factory Stage I flash done if I were you.
I think it's a waste of time and money.
For that $$ get a PCIII or one of the other add-on inline devices.
You'll get much better results tuning for your specific setup.

I still prefer the Screaming Eagle Race Tuner kit (SERT) myself, but that's more money than you're indicating.
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