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Old 11-21-2012, 09:38 AM   #16 (permalink)
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papachop wants to know Dino or Syn?
getting these error codes cand find any data on them

pn 61121
67348-04a
68922-00d
67349-04
p 61005

They could be old. have been cleared

See if they come back. Anoune else get those?
petrock appreciate your reply should be a sticky made out of that. Ill study it this eve in detail. Appreciate it.
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Old 11-21-2012, 02:46 PM   #17 (permalink)
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So where it stands I wasnt getting fuel to the front cylinder should be now with a new connector to the front injector.
There is still no spark as the motor didnt ignite after pouring gas into the cylinders and starter fluid into the intake.
Going to test the coil next and work it back to the battery.

Last edited by papachop; 11-21-2012 at 05:09 PM.
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Old 11-22-2012, 02:30 PM   #18 (permalink)
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The 4 wire connector that goes to the ignition coil doesnt seem to have any power to it when cranking or otherwise. the same tool when checking the battery lit up like chritmas. So it seems there is no power to fire the coil.
Can anyone give me a step by step on how to go from here?
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Old 11-23-2012, 03:33 AM   #19 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by papachop View Post
The 4 wire connector that goes to the ignition coil doesnt seem to have any power to it when cranking or otherwise.
If the coil isn't getting power, first check all the fuses & relays. A visual inspection of fuses is not adequate, pick up a fuse tester from your local auto parts store for a couple bucks or use a multimeter set to test continuity.

To test the ignition relay, without much fuss, swap the ignition relay with the starter relay. You know the starter relay is good since it is engaging and turning the motor over when try to start the bike. If, after the swap, the starter stops working and you start getting spark then you know the relay is bad.

If the fuses & relays check out, then walk the power wire to the coil back until you find power. You mentioned in your first post that you have the shop & electrical manuals, which have the wiring diagrams. Use it to figure out which wire is power since the trick to figure out which wire is which I outlined in my previous novel () only works on ground side switched circuits (power is constant, ground is turned off/on when running), or constant power/ground circuits. If memory serves, the coil is power side switched (ground is constant, power is turned off/on when running).

Come to think of it, the shop manual should have a testing workflow for no spark issues like this. Check the Ignition section.

Good luck...
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Last edited by petrock; 11-23-2012 at 03:46 AM.
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Old 11-23-2012, 06:44 AM   #20 (permalink)
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Wonder if he's checking spark with the plugs out, no compression, no spark. If memory serves me correctly.
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Old 11-23-2012, 07:15 AM   #21 (permalink)
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Chipmaker Ive chcked for spark with the fuse out and recently invested in a inline spark tester that sits between the plug and coil. No spark on both counts
The shop manual has a 4 page diagnostic for no spark but engine cranks. Doing my best going through this but having to learn all the electric terminology is hyndering the excercise Im sure.

Facts so far

fuel good
pump primes
starter new spins engages
tsm new
battery is a recently bought used car battery reads 12.9
no sure cranking power
wires new
coil new
plugs new
CPM tested good. No error codes for CPM
Ive gone with a volts meter to all the fuse connections taken the fuse out and check for power
Today Ill replace all fuses one by one to make sure no hidden issues
Also do relays.
Not getting any new error codes while cranking the motor

My oil pump may not be working properly. When I went to fill up the engine after post assembly the oil went to a certain to the top of the filler tube. While cranking the motor the oil went down a bit but no fully all the way.
It my understanding if I take out the plug on the front left side of the pan the oil will drain out leaving the fller tube empty. Have to take alook at that today that isnt the case here.
I dont really know if Im getting good circulation. Then I decided to dump some oil because it was to high on the dipstick. It only went down a little. Leading me to believe that the pump wasnt circulating the fluids? When assembling the cam plate/ oil pump I used the alligment pins but it wouldnt be the first time I had a hard time with an oil pump. No compression would equal no spark?
Ive check the bottom two oil feed lines and they are both moving oil. Is there a realiable way to check if my oil pump is doing its job before I take the front cylinder exaust pipe off and dwell into the camp cover??
Starting to think thais spark issue may be related to a non electrical problem.
Iver also posted a few adds for any wiser heads around Southern ontario interested in popping by and taking a listen to this motor.

Last edited by papachop; 11-23-2012 at 07:19 AM.
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Old 11-23-2012, 08:12 AM   #22 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by papachop View Post
Chipmaker Ive chcked for spark with the fuse out ? No compression would equal no spark?

Which fuse?

It is my understanding, that if you have the plugs out of the cylinder head, hence no compression, there will be no spark. Because the ECM supplies spark based on compression.
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Old 11-23-2012, 09:19 AM   #23 (permalink)
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Which fuse?

It is my understanding, that if you have the plugs out of the cylinder head, hence no compression, there will be no spark. Because the ECM supplies spark based on compression.[/QUOTE]


Make sense, but the bike is running an inline spark tester now. The plugs are in the cylinders connected to the coil.
Same effect. This may come down to my lack of understanding of electrical test equipment. Im definitely enjoying the learning process and hope one day to be helping someone else out with there scooter.
As for the fuse not sure what you ment by that.
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Old 11-23-2012, 12:28 PM   #24 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by papachop View Post
Chipmaker Ive chcked for spark with the fuse out and recently invested in a inline spark tester that sits between the plug and coil. No spark on both counts
The shop manual has a 4 page diagnostic for no spark but engine cranks. Doing my best going through this but having to learn all the electric terminology is hyndering the excercise Im sure.

Facts so far

fuel good
pump primes
starter new spins engages
tsm new
battery is a recently bought used car battery reads 12.9
no sure cranking power
wires new
coil new
plugs new
CPM tested good. No error codes for CPM
Ive gone with a volts meter to all the fuse connections taken the fuse out and check for power
Today Ill replace all fuses one by one to make sure no hidden issues
Also do relays.
Not getting any new error codes while cranking the motor

My oil pump may not be working properly. When I went to fill up the engine after post assembly the oil went to a certain to the top of the filler tube. While cranking the motor the oil went down a bit but no fully all the way.
It my understanding if I take out the plug on the front left side of the pan the oil will drain out leaving the fller tube empty. Have to take alook at that today that isnt the case here.
I dont really know if Im getting good circulation. Then I decided to dump some oil because it was to high on the dipstick. It only went down a little. Leading me to believe that the pump wasnt circulating the fluids? When assembling the cam plate/ oil pump I used the alligment pins but it wouldnt be the first time I had a hard time with an oil pump. No compression would equal no spark?
Ive check the bottom two oil feed lines and they are both moving oil. Is there a realiable way to check if my oil pump is doing its job before I take the front cylinder exaust pipe off and dwell into the camp cover??
Starting to think thais spark issue may be related to a non electrical problem.
Iver also posted a few adds for any wiser heads around Southern ontario interested in popping by and taking a listen to this motor.
Just squirt some oil into the cylinder. you may have the cams out of time, so no compression.
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Old 11-23-2012, 01:14 PM   #25 (permalink)
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Are you saying to pour oil into cylinders through the sparkplug hole so the oil runs down to the bottom end? If so how much and how long will it t ake for it to run down??
If the cams are out of time they need to be reinstalled properly for the motor work proper?? The engine was recently disasembled and reasembled and hasnt run since. Is this a normal procedure to priming a fresh motor with oil through the sparplugs?
This a question not a statement.

Last edited by papachop; 11-23-2012 at 01:23 PM.
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Old 11-23-2012, 03:20 PM   #26 (permalink)
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No, just squirt a little oil in the cylinders to wet the rings, in case they are dry, in order to make them seal, maybe 10 drops.
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Old 11-23-2012, 04:10 PM   #27 (permalink)
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Gonna go pick up a compression tester. If there is no compression and the motor is spinning the pump is not working and would it be resasonable to assume the ecm is not sending a signal for spark because it knows there is no compression?
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Old 11-23-2012, 06:21 PM   #28 (permalink)
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Yes
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Old 11-24-2012, 08:09 AM   #29 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by papachop View Post
Chipmaker Ive chcked for spark with the fuse out
Which fuse? None of the fuses should be out. All of them should be plugged in and not blown otherwise whatever circuit the fuse is protecting will not work. Pulling a fuse has the same effect as a blown fuse in that the circuit the fuse is protecting is dead and no power will flow through it. The connection is broken.


Quote:
Originally Posted by papachop View Post
Ive gone with a volts meter to all the fuse connections taken the fuse out and check for power
Thats not how you test a fuse with a volt-meter. To properly test a fuse with a volt-meter:
  • Plug ALL the fuses & relays back in
  • Set the key to the ON position without starting the bike (so the fuses will be energized)
  • Set the meter to as close to 12 volts without going under
  • Touch the negative lead on the meter to the negative battery post
  • Touch the positive lead of the meter to one of the little metal tabs sticking out the top of the fuse
  • Touch the positive lead of the meter to the other little metal tab sticking out the top of the fuse

You should read battery voltage (12.9 volts in your case) on both metal tabs. If you read battery voltage on one side but not the other then the fuse is blown. If you read 0 volts on both metal tabs, then the circuit that that fuse protects doesn't have power going through it (yet). But depending on the circuit, this can be normal. In which case the test is invalid for that fuse. That is why it is better to test a fuse with a continuity test with a multi-meter or fuse tester rather then a voltage test with a volt-meter. You can pick up a fuse tester from your local auto parts store for a couple bucks. Some fuse variety packs include one.

Quote:
Originally Posted by papachop View Post
Today Ill replace all fuses one by one to make sure no hidden issues
That may be a little overkill & a waste of time/money. Just test the fuses as I described above and replace any that are blown.


Quote:
Originally Posted by CHIPMAKER View Post
It is my understanding, that if you have the plugs out of the cylinder head, hence no compression, there will be no spark. Because the ECM supplies spark based on compression.
That is the first I'm hearing of this. Spark is independent of compression. You can have one without the other. There also isn't a compression sensor that I'm aware of, so there is no way for the ECM to know the amount of compression in a cylinder.
However, Combustion & Compression are related though. You can have the perfect amount of spark, but with no compression the gas won't ignite. The reverse is also true. You can have the perfect amount of compression, but with no spark the gas won't ignite.
Now, with that said, if you pull a spark plug out of the motor, but keep it in the spark plug wire and then try to turn the bike over you won't get any spark on that plug. This is expected. The spark plug gets its ground connection through the motor. So if you unscrew the spark plug you remove its ground connection and therefor won't see any spark.



papachop, since your electronic diagnostics experience is limited, I'm going to assume that you may have been testing for spark incorrectly. Please don't take offense. With an inline spark tester like this you:
  • Keep the spark plugs screwed into the motor
  • Don't pull any fuses or relays
  • Plug one end of the inline spark tester into the plug wire end
  • Plug the other end of the inline spark tester onto the spark plug
  • Try to start the bike

If the spark tester lights up while cranking then you have spark. If not, then you have no spark.
__________________
Vivid Black '06 FXSTBI
SE Stage-II 95"
SE Stage-I A/C (Poor Man Edition w/ K&N Filter)
Python Staggered Exhaust w/ Quiet Baffles
HD Primary Chain Auto-Tensioner
SE Hydraulic Cam Plate & High-Flow oil pump
SERT

Wish List (in order of "Gotta Have It"-ness):
14" Ape/Gimp Hangers (have, but needs install)
Black Braided Throttle/Fuel/Brake/Clutch lines
Black Powdercoated Fork Sliders and Triple Trees
My Two Front Teeph

Last edited by petrock; 11-24-2012 at 08:37 AM.
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Old 11-24-2012, 11:09 AM   #30 (permalink)
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Quote:
That is the first I'm hearing of this. Spark is independent of compression. You can have one without the other. There also isn't a compression sensor that I'm aware of, so there is no way for the ECM to know the amount of compression in a cylinder. Quote

As I understood from a thread some years ago, a fellow was having the same problem. He had the plugs out but grounded, and could not get a spark. Some one had chimed in that the ECM would read resistance to make a spark. As it took more energy to make a spark under higher compression, it would raise the spark level. That part made sense to me. I'm not sure about it not making any spark at all. But this situation has me wondering now. I think i'll go plug the plugs on mine and see if I get a spark.
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