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Old 01-14-2012, 04:22 PM   #1 (permalink)
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loud valve train noise

1999 flht 88 to 95 conversion.
started immediatly after build.
i got the old jugs bored, installed new pistons, new push rods,rebilt stock heads.
ive checked everything: pulled cam plate , checked bearings,cams [ stock cams] , tenisoners,blew out all the oil passages,new orings. i found the rear exhaust lifter collapsed and a pushrod bent, put in 4 new chevy lt1 lifters and new adjustable pushrods,still knocked, then 1 of those collapsed, replaced it..pulled rocker arms and checked all the measurments, there well in tollerance,.checked for contact with the cover or rocker box, none. and it runs like a top it just bangs like hell, tubes arent hitting either..the noise seems to be coming from the rear exhaust area. i even swapped the rocker assemblies and the noise still comes from the rear exhaust area...hellppp
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Old 01-17-2012, 06:54 AM   #2 (permalink)
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Question

Quote:
Originally Posted by dumas View Post
1999 flht 88 to 95 conversion.
started immediatly after build.
i got the old jugs bored, installed new pistons, new push rods,rebilt stock heads.
ive checked everything: pulled cam plate , checked bearings,cams [ stock cams] , tenisoners,blew out all the oil passages,new orings. i found the rear exhaust lifter collapsed and a pushrod bent, put in 4 new chevy lt1 lifters and new adjustable pushrods,still knocked, then 1 of those collapsed, replaced it..pulled rocker arms and checked all the measurments, there well in tollerance,.checked for contact with the cover or rocker box, none. and it runs like a top it just bangs like hell, tubes arent hitting either..the noise seems to be coming from the rear exhaust area. i even swapped the rocker assemblies and the noise still comes from the rear exhaust area...hellppp
check your rear cylinder exhaust gasket might be blowing out.
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Old 01-17-2012, 08:24 AM   #3 (permalink)
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taken from http://www.americanrider.com/output.cfm?id=1021969

Quote:
I suspect that the majority of the noise you hear is due to a poor fit between the pinion (crankshaft) gear and the cam gear. There are several sizes of both cam and pinion gears available and one must carefully select the correct set. Harley-Davidson matched the gear set when they originally built your engine. That is why I recommend using the original gear set whenever anyone fits a new cam.

You also have JIMS Hydrosolid tappets. JIMS Hydrosolid tappets barely have enough travel to accommodate engine growth. When adjusting them, bottom them to make sure they do not run out of travel before the engine finishes expanding.

However, valve train noise can have several causes and your engine's noise might be a combination of more than one of them. The more common sources, in order of frequency, are (except for the first example, these causes apply equally to Twin Cam, Evo and Evo Sportster engines):



* Pinion/cam gear fit (Evo only). The distance between the centers of the crankshaft and camshaft increase as the engine warms. The sizes (pitch diameter) of the two gears, pinion and cam, must be carefully matched if they are to remain quiet when the engine is warm. If the gears are too large (tight), they destroy the oil film and themselves. If they are too small (loose) they make noise but do no harm other than the rattling noise. The noise is mainly in the cam case and appears or grows louder as the engine warms.



* Aggressive or poor cam lobe design. Opening ramps with high acceleration rates can hammer the valve train parts and the noise is similar to that of a hammer falling on an anvil; not good. Closing ramps that are too abrupt essentially drop the valves onto the base circle of the cam lobe with the force of a hammer on steel, also not good. Closing ramps are supposed to slow the valve as it closes and deliver it gently to the valve seat. I have measured cams that have had no closing ramps at all; these cams were very noisy and destructive to valve seats, valves and tappets. The noise appears at both the top and bottom of the valve train.



* Stiff valve springs. Higher-rate valve springs intensify any noise source in the valve train. When combined with aggressive cams, the noise can be irritating and the impact loads may be very destructive. The "hammer" is heavier and swung more forcefully. The noise is louder near the valves. They may also 'ring' a bit.



* Incorrectly adjusted pushrods. If the mechanic does not adjust the pushrods correctly (long enough), the hydraulic tappets top-out before the engine is fully expanded. Play develops in the valve train and it becomes noisy. The noise may seem to come from both the cam area and the heads.



* Contact between the pushrods and pushrod covers. ---- Some combinations of cam, pushrod and rocker arm designs may result in the pushrods contacting the pushrod cover tubes. This noise seems to come from the heads. Wear on the pushrod diameters near their tops identifies this noise source.



* Rocker arms with needle bearings. Stock and most aftermarket rocker arms ride on hydrodynamic (plain) bearings. This is the best way to do it and the quietest. Needle bearings do their best work when rotating and not when oscillated as they are in needle-supported rocker arms. They also lack the noise damping characteristics of the plain bearing; hence they tend to make a bit of noise.



* Loose valve guides or loose valve seats. This is rare but can be very frustrating to diagnose. A loose guide or seat usually becomes noisy only as the engine warms. The best way to narrow the noise source is to start the engine cold, set it for a fast idle and listen as it warms. The noise develops as the engine warms and is fairly easy to isolate. In either case the mechanic must remove the head to make a final diagnosis. One can move a loose guide when cold, using a valve stem for leverage. A loose valve seat reveals itself by the appearance of the joint between itself and the head material.



A couple of these noises are benign, the rest are not. A loose gear set does no harm and can rattle reliably for the life of the engine. Needle bearing rocker arms do no harm but are likely to wear out sooner than the stock design. Pushrod contact with the covers isn't likely to do serious harm.

Any noise source that applies impact loads on the valve train is not good. In fact it is very bad. Poor camshaft closing ramps beat up the valve seats, valves and tappet bearings. Incorrectly adjusted pushrods are very rough on the tappet bearings. High-rpm valve float occurs when the valve springs are too weak for the cam design and can quickly destroy tappet bearings, valve seats and valves.

In short, be very, very suspicious of valve train noise. While sometimes harmless, it is not your friend.
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Old 01-17-2012, 09:46 PM   #4 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dumas View Post
1999 flht 88 to 95 conversion.
started immediatly after build.
i got the old jugs bored, installed new pistons, new push rods,rebilt stock heads.
ive checked everything: pulled cam plate , checked bearings,cams [ stock cams] , tenisoners,blew out all the oil passages,new orings. i found the rear exhaust lifter collapsed and a pushrod bent, put in 4 new chevy lt1 lifters and new adjustable pushrods,still knocked, then 1 of those collapsed, replaced it..pulled rocker arms and checked all the measurments, there well in tollerance,.checked for contact with the cover or rocker box, none. and it runs like a top it just bangs like hell, tubes arent hitting either..the noise seems to be coming from the rear exhaust area. i even swapped the rocker assemblies and the noise still comes from the rear exhaust area...hellppp
Sounds like you have a issue with lifters. The chevy lifter which you have installed everyone says will fit in a T/C, yes they will fit but that is it. A chevy lifter requires a large volume of oil and also higher oil pressure than what a T/C harley oil system can produce. Therefore the bleed off rate of the chevy lifter is a lot quicker and that reduces the amount of oil in the lifter which causes it to bleed down and also reduces the amount of oil volume/pressure that reaches the top end.

I had the same problem as you and went the same route. In experimenting I have found that the only lifter that is specific built for the T/C engine is the Gaterman GP-1023 lifter. Most all of the others are modified chevys. This lifter has additional oil supply holes (3), chevy, comp cams, crane, s&s, fueling and others only have 1 oil feed hole. If the lifter fits loosely in the bore then the oil can leak around the lifter body and only able to feed the lifter in one location where the Gatermans has three areas to feed the lifter. With more oil entering the hydraulic portion of the lifter this eliminates lifter noise and collapse.

Check them out a Gatermans Products web site or call them. 1-386-253-1899, they are very helpful. Good Luck....
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Old 01-17-2012, 10:14 PM   #5 (permalink)
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i think that also, at first i just had an old set of t/c lifters, 1 went bad, then when i installed the chevy lifters 1 went bad in the same hole, making me think obviously that i had some problem in that area..im going to give them a shot and stop chasing this monkey..whats so dam puzzleing is that it runs like a raped ape and just so noisey i been scared to go to far with it...noisy right off start and it gets worse as you rev and really bad on decelleration, the only time its even bearable is under a heavy load, then it almost goes away...
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Old 01-17-2012, 10:18 PM   #6 (permalink)
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BTW what did those lifters run you????
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Old 01-17-2012, 10:30 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Called Gaterman and they sent me to Hot-Shot Motorworks and I paid 125.00 for the 1023's.
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Old 01-18-2012, 06:04 PM   #8 (permalink)
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Talked with Dan today , hes got me a set on the way asap, great guy and a treasure trove of information..I had no idea that this was the shop that started trueing and welding twin cam cranks back in 99...but notsip83 how did you set them up, they said to set them to 35 to 40 thousandths when hot. i set my lifters when cold i have an idea about how to do that but not really.....
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Old 01-18-2012, 06:57 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by dumas View Post
Talked with Dan today , hes got me a set on the way asap, great guy and a treasure trove of information..I had no idea that this was the shop that started trueing and welding twin cam cranks back in 99...but notsip83 how did you set them up, they said to set them to 35 to 40 thousandths when hot. i set my lifters when cold i have an idea about how to do that but not really.....
Glad that Hot Shot got you hooked up. I'm sure you will like them.

Set them as you would any adjustable pushrod. Three turns down from the top. This will put you in the middle of the adjustment range.
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Old 04-01-2012, 06:00 PM   #10 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by notsip83 View Post
Sounds like you have a issue with lifters.

The chevy lifter which you have installed everyone says will fit in a T/C, yes they will fit but that is it. A chevy lifter requires a large volume of oil and also higher oil pressure than what a T/C harley oil system can produce. Therefore the bleed off rate of the chevy lifter is a lot quicker and that reduces the amount of oil in the lifter which causes it to bleed down and also reduces the amount of oil volume/pressure that reaches the top end.

I had the same problem as you and went the same route. In experimenting I have found that the only lifter that is specific built for the T/C engine is the Gaterman GP-1023 lifter. Most all of the others are modified chevys.

This lifter has additional oil supply holes (3), chevy, comp cams, crane, s&s, fueling and others only have 1 oil feed hole. If the lifter fits loosely in the bore then the oil can leak around the lifter body and only able to feed the lifter in one location where the Gatermans has three areas to feed the lifter. With more oil entering the hydraulic portion of the lifter this eliminates lifter noise and collapse.

Check them out a Gatermans Products web site or call them. 1-386-253-1899, they are very helpful. Good Luck....
Not only does OEM lifters bleed off slower than the SBC lifters but Gaterman 1023's bleed off slower than the OEM Harley lifters.
I got 4 in hand & the quality is second to none. They will also handle larger lift cams which can be an open window when the desire is there.
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Old 04-06-2012, 12:22 AM   #11 (permalink)
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I did all the same things as you.I did a 98" motor kit with andrews 54 cams,ported heads,new lifters,push rods and all.When cold it sounded awesome once warm got noisey.Well these are hydraulic lifters and it takes a certain pressure to hold them up to keep the valve lash just right so you dont hear the chatter.So i ordered a baisley oil pump spring and that was 3 weeks ago it took about 90% of the noise out.I carry better oil pressure at idle when i would really hear it.
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