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Old 11-16-2011, 12:37 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Harley Davidson vs Screaming Eagle cam plate upgrade?

I am in the process of upgrading to the new cam plate for my twin cam 88. I noticed that Harley offers a cam plate upgrade wich is black and Screamin Eagle offers one that is orange. They appear to be around the same price.

Is there a diference between the two cam plates?? or is it just marketing?
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Old 11-16-2011, 05:55 PM   #2 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sinn View Post
I am in the process of upgrading to the new cam plate for my twin cam 88. I noticed that Harley offers a cam plate upgrade wich is black and Screamin Eagle offers one that is orange. They appear to be around the same price.

Is there a diference between the two cam plates?? or is it just marketing?
Have you looked at the R&R camplate?
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Old 11-16-2011, 06:45 PM   #3 (permalink)
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25284-11 is the one you want. it is orange.
I am not aware of a black harley conversion. but they could very well have one.
there is, a black billet upgrade plate for a 06/07 up style. but it isnt a conversion.
anyway the orange, SE is a very nice setup.
had some quality problems when they first came out. so take the older threads with a grain of salt. I havent had or heard of any failures in a long time.
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Old 11-16-2011, 07:38 PM   #4 (permalink)
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I used the SE upgrade kit 25284-08, which was in the 2010 catalog. There is a picture of the entire kit in the SE section, page 493 and it is black. BTW, it has worked flawlessly since it went in 10,000 miles ago.
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Old 11-16-2011, 08:22 PM   #5 (permalink)
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The cam plate was black in the early production runs. They are all orange color in later kits. If you don't mind spending a little more cash, get the updated kit(25284-11) with the better oil pump. About $440 on Ebay.
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Old 11-16-2011, 08:53 PM   #6 (permalink)
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There is a difference between the 25284-11 kit and the 25284-08 kit. The early -08 kits had an anodized black plate and a pump up grade. The -11 kits have an even better pump, much better scavenging and oil pressure #s. Google both of them and check 'em out.
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Old 11-27-2011, 02:23 PM   #7 (permalink)
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I'm at about 35,000 miles on my '03 Road King. I plan on replacing the cam chain tensioners with the HD hydraulic tensioner upgrade kit; not because of failure yet, but as preventative maintenance & because I like to turn a wrench at any opportunity. The stock oil pump has never been a problem that I've heard of, considering regular oil maintenance, synthetic oils, and the pump being properly installed & centered.

That said, I had planned on putting the 25284-08 on my Christmas wish list, but now I hear of this new 25284-11 kit with a better pump.

Let me see if I get this right...
The -11 kit has an oil pump that's better than the -08 kit oil pump that is better than the OEM pump that works just fine?

The price difference through Zanotti's is $364.15 vs. $423.44, a difference of $59.29 between the -08 and -11 kits.

In your opinions, considering oil pump performance of all 3 pumps, and the needs of the engine (mine's got the SE 95" kit), is there any practical value in spending the additional $59.29 for the latest & greatest pump? I know the pricier pump doesn't make the bike look any better or increase torque or HP; so does the added performance truley result in any better engine reliability or longer mean time between failure?
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Old 11-27-2011, 04:34 PM   #8 (permalink)
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Let's see----- two more Harley tee-shirts or upgrade a major engine component. Decisions, decisions.
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Old 11-27-2011, 07:03 PM   #9 (permalink)
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For $60 ... I'd sure as hell get it done. It may keep you from ever having to deal with carry over. The MoCo would not have created this upgrade and made it a standard part of all of their motors unless they believe there is money to be made (reduced warranty expenses).


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Old 11-28-2011, 07:03 PM   #10 (permalink)
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For $60 ... I'd sure as hell get it done. It may keep you from ever having to deal with carry over. The MoCo would not have created this upgrade and made it a standard part of all of their motors unless they believe there is money to be made (reduced warranty expenses).


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Granted, but by the same token, the MoCo also knows that anything they market as bigger and better are going to sell just by virtue of being bigger & better. It's seen every day by millions that buy K&N filters & so many other upgrades that do have some benefit for extreme applications, but don't even begin to add any value to the average buyer in his daily driver. Just think about H1 SUVs and big pickup trucks being driven by soccer moms. Think about using Amsoil & changing it every 1000 miles.

I was fishing for anyone who might know what the optimum oil pressure and flow rate are for an 88" with the 95" SE kit that is used for standard riding, only occasionally hitting the extended redline, and which pump(s) meet it, which exceed it. It may well be well below the capacity of the -11 or even the -08 kit.

As I understand it, the -08 was made standard on the 96", but the -11 is an SE add-on, maybe for 110" engines.

I respect the opinions of "just buy it 'cause it's better", but I was hoping for response from someone maybe a little more technically knowledgeable about what pressure & flow is optimal, and if the -11 pump is overkill for the "smaller" displacement engines.

For all I know and from what I've read, half the flow could constantly be going through the bypass unless it's a large big bore track application. Too much flow could reduce the time the oil has to cool in the tank or through the filter/cooler.

I could get a higher output alternator, wide-open intake with velocity stacks and straight pipes, but it would be a waste for a mildly tweaked daily rider with no extras.

Don't get me wrong, I've always been into the "buy it 'cause it's better" crowd, but after seeing so many over-spec'd products being bought and places where money could be better spent I'd rather have some idea if it's more than needed for my 95". And a t-shirt may be a better use for the money after all.

Last edited by mark fisher; 11-28-2011 at 07:10 PM.
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Old 11-29-2011, 07:28 AM   #11 (permalink)
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Proper Oil Pressure

There is probably a range of oil pressure that will supply good lubrication to our motors. One caution and something that has hurt some owner's motors - don't go too high with very stiff springs or shims on the pressure relief. If you use any of the HD pumps, they all create suction on one side of the gearotors and pressure on the other side - looking at the back of the camplate, suction on the right side and pressure on the left side of the gearotor circle. That why the gearotor wear pattern on the back of the camplate always shows more wear fromt the 12 oclock to 6 oclock (right) side of the circle. The suction/pressure created attempts to cock the gearotors in the pump body and against the camplate, causing the uneven wear pattern. if you increase the pressure too much it can magnify this enough to cause accelerated wear and score the camplate to the point of pressure loss, not to mention the metal particles the wear creates. Normal warmed up oil pressure at 2000 rpms beyond 30-40 psi is not needed and likely too high.
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Old 11-29-2011, 08:20 AM   #12 (permalink)
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Fair 'nuff Mark. I see your point now.

BDuncan also brings a good point. I have read about that before right here at the VTF.
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Old 11-29-2011, 08:22 PM   #13 (permalink)
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BDuncans point IS a very good one, and one that I haven't heard of. So too much oil pressure would effectively find a way to relieve itself if the bypass spring is not properly matched, and not in a good way.

I was leaning towards getting the -11 as you and hoghawler pointed out, it could be considered insurance for for the few extra bucks above the -08 kit. And in a way I would like to get it just because it's bigger. If I had a 103" or 110", I would go with the -11. But after some consideration and hearing that excessive pressure causes wear on the weakest point it finds, I guess I'll stick with the -08 and it's milder bump in flow/pressure & scavenging.
Of course I'd assume that the factory bypass pressure is tuned to avoid damage to hardware, but just that it has been known to happen is enough for me.

I haven't heard of a well-maintained engine with a stock pump or -08 pump wearing out due to oil starvation, and my bike shouldn't have any higher than average oil pressure needs. That said, the 8% flow and 22% scavenging increases should be good enough to where accelerated engine wear due to insufficient oil circulation will not be a concern.

Thanks guys.
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Old 11-30-2011, 10:11 AM   #14 (permalink)
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Mark Fisher, I need to clarify. All the HD pumps work the same way but the newer versions are an improvement due to better scavenging and other small changes. If the cost was the same, I'd get the latest pump. I run an SE Camplate with the new in '08 pump. The oil pressure relief spring in the Camplate controls pressure and some owners have gone with a overly stiff spring creating higher pressure than needed, thinking more is better. I remember someone's post some years back indicating 62 psi at 50 mph but the same person was complaining about excessive camplate wear and loss of pressure a few weeks later. The way the pumps work, they all can be affected by overly high oil pressure. It is also completely normal to see wear or very light scoring on the camplate where the gearotors run - metal against metal even though in oil. The normal wear gets magnified when the pressure is increased beyond what is considered normal. The increased pressure pushes even harder against the gearotors on the pressure (left) side while the suction (right) side (inlet from oil tank) is only too happy to help. I've seen both pump bodies and camplates scored badly enough to cause a significant drop in pressure. As far as the springs, my SE Camplate spring was actually a little shorter than my stock spring which explains why my new improved camplate and pump gave me less pressure that my original stock pump/plate (MOCO quality control). Check your spring before install. I used the Latus Motors spring (the lighter one) but I could have also reused the stock spring. The stock unanodized aluminum camplate show the wear pattern but it's silver wear marks on silver metal. With the first version black anodized SE plate like I have, the same normal wear shows up loud and clear (silver wear marks on black). I always wondered if that was part of the reason for the switch to orange or amber anodized, beside the orange looks so cool. I don't think some of the manufactures of super heavy relief springs or spring shims really understood how the pump works and how it would be affected - just thinking more oil pressure is good. None of this matters to real high performance or race engines where higher oil pressure might be necessary and a different type pump is used or increased camplate wear is acceptable.
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Old 12-03-2011, 09:50 AM   #15 (permalink)
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Oil pressure in an H-D engine is not nearly as important as oil volume.
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