Running Rich at warm up

[ryanl]

I have rode the bike all summer with no problems whatsoever. Just recently we have had the temperature drop. Bike starts fine, idles fine. I can smell fuel however, and the first mile or so the bike feels low on power. Like it is running EXTREMELY rich. But, after that first mile or so, it runs like a champ. Black marks on the pavement and a very light frontend. Park the bike for an hour or so, and get back on it. Problem does not occur. It is only when the bike is cold. This has happened the last 4-5 times I have rode the bike. Tried reloading the map on my pc3 just for fun, also changed plugs. No change. The first time I noticed the problem, I had a code pop, it was no combustion rear cylinder. Checked all connections and cleared the code. Code has not been thrown again but the problem still persists so I dont know if it was related or not.

Any suggestions?

[claydbal]

oem warmup tables in the ecm. larger injectors. PC3 has no provisions for this. in the summer, you got off the warmup tables quickly so you didnt notice it, now that it is cold, you are staying on the tables longer and now you notice it. if you had a tuner other than PC3, you could adjust. if keeping the PC3, just dont let her idle too long cold, and make sure oil isnt turning darker, and you should be OK.

cold fouling plugs would be first indication, but darker oil means you are washing rings--not good.

i assume you are allowing too much warmup time or you wouldnt be smellin fuel? the no combustion code may have happened as you went from rich warmup, to lean PC3 settings. that grey area as you get into the PC3 tables and motor isnt warm enough, yet startting to go from ecm to PC3.

just a thought. throw an electric blanket over the motor overnite, fire her up and see if the problem is not as bad? you probably wouldnt notice this with stock injectors, probably just the opposite.

[ryanl]

I can let the bike warm up for less than 30 seconds and the exhaust smells rich and plugs are quite dark. Take it for a quick ride, come back smells normal. Plugs look normal.

To the best of my knowledge Im running stock injectors.

[claydbal]

ok, maybe im missing something. eliminate the pc3 and see what happens.

[strokerjlk]

now that it is cold, you are staying on the tables longer and now you notice it. if you had a tuner other than PC3, you could adjust. if

Dennis was on to it here.
the colder it is the richer the warm up enrichment table is (stock ecu values )
so you are running richer for the enrichment time now that it is colder.
The PC doesn't allow you to adjust enrichment based on temp.
so if your Idle is set a little rich already (to help cool the motor )
then you are increasing that value by around 2.0 at cold start up idle. so if your idle is at 13.2 when fully warm then at cold start up you would be at 11.2 and gradually go leaner as the warm up enrichment goes through it's cycle time.

[Antonio Pendejo]

Yes, this is normal for warmup. You will even notice the gas smell with a stock ecm. The code you referenced usually comes up after a a bad start, like when you hit the start button and the motor kicks back and fails to light off.
AP

[ryanl]

So what should I be looking for to correct the problem? Should the motor be running so rich that it is low on power? I mean like at least 30% down. First time it happened I freaked, thought I had taken out the bottom end or something.
Sure wish I would have gone with the sert/sest instead of the pc3.....

[strokerjlk]

Originally Posted by ryanl

So what should I be looking for to correct the problem? Should the motor be running so rich that it is low on power? I mean like at least 30% down. First time it happened I freaked, thought I had taken out the bottom end or something.
Sure wish I would have gone with the sert/sest instead of the pc3.....

if it is rich for more than a couple of minutes, then there is another problem than described from my earlier post.
I had one a while back that I tuned with a tts because the guy came out from eating supper and tryied to start his bike it was dumping so much fuel in the motor that it wouldnt start. PC went bad just like that! I unhooked it put new plugs in and it ran. then I installed tts and tuned . totality diff bike. (his words) SORRY I thought it was only running rich for a couple of minutes from your original post.....so like Dennis said unhook the pc and see what happens.
maybe something went south in the PC. (micro processor)If so maybe they will cover it, If not time for a TTS.

[ryanl]

Originally Posted by strokerjlk

maybe something went south in the PC. (micro processor)If so maybe they will cover it, If not time for a TTS.

This is what I am leaning towards at this point. I have tried letting it idle for 3-4 minutes and it will still run like dog sh*t for about a mile or so. But then leans right on up and runs great. My father had his PC crap out last winter and he was having similiar problems at cold startup. Replaced the PC and was like you described like a new bike. The PCIII is well over a year old so I doubt it will be covered.
By running the bike without the PC will I be risking any damage?
Is it possible that the bike will still run like crap because of the lack of tune?

Or can I go in and just lean it out at 0 tp from 500-1250?

Thanks for all the input guys.

[strokerjlk]

Originally Posted by ryanl

This is what I am leaning towards at this point. I have tried letting it idle for 3-4 minutes and it will still run like dog sh*t for about a mile or so. But then leans right on up and runs great. My father had his PC crap out last winter and he was having similiar problems at cold startup. Replaced the PC and was like you described like a new bike. The PCIII is well over a year old so I doubt it will be covered.
By running the bike without the PC will I be risking any damage?
Is it possible that the bike will still run like crap because of the lack of tune?

Thanks for all the input guys.

After unhooking PC to see if cold idle changes (goes leaner).
I would GUESS it isn't going to run very well with a stock map. based on your mods. I would leave it hooked up since you are saying it runs fine after it is warm...... this is the part that is that has wondering hum! because if the PC had a problem after the bike is through its warm up enrichment and it is still idling rich while somewhat cold then it should still have somewhat of the same problem when it is hot.....SO maybe you are overly rich at idle from the start (since your original tune) and when the ambient temp is higher and the motor warms faster you were not noticing a problem (smelling fuel etc) because a warmer motor will burn the fuel off as where a cold motor doesn't have as complete a burn. thus you are seeing and smelling a rich condition.

A cold motor actually will run leaner (actual runing state) because it cant vaporise all the fuel, leaving small liquid droplets unburned so I am not saying a cold engine runs richer but it creates a rich condition. because of unburned fuel.
this is a whole other topic.. but wanted to explain the theory at least.


before I spent any money on a tuner I would try leaning your current map out at idle. and see what happens. sounds like you have your original map saved . so it would be worth a try.
with the PC you can actually decrease or increase the fuel while it is running. try hooking up the laptop and decreasing fuel when it is cold. that is going to also lean it out in the same area when it is hot but maybe that what it needed all along.
just something to try .

[Antonio Pendejo]

Numbers (enrichment) in the zero TP column of your map were put there to eliminate exhaust popping during decel. Save your original map, then go in and eliminate or just reduce the numbers in the zero column, reload and give it a try. What plugs are you running? If you are running a colder than stock plug it will prolong the amount of time it takes for the motor to reach operating temp. Not a big issue during the warm months but may be noticeable when it is cold outside.
AP

[ryanl]

Originally Posted by strokerjlk

After unhooking PC to see if cold idle changes (goes leaner).
I would GUESS it isn't going to run very well with a stock map. based on your mods. I would leave it hooked up since you are saying it runs fine after it is warm...... this is the part that is that has wondering hum! because if the PC had a problem after the bike is through its warm up enrichment and it is still idling rich while somewhat cold then it should still have somewhat of the same problem when it is hot.....SO maybe you are overly rich at idle from the start (since your original tune) and when the ambient temp is higher and the motor warms faster you were not noticing a problem (smelling fuel etc) because a warmer motor will burn the fuel off as where a cold motor doesn't have as complete a burn. thus you are seeing and smelling a rich condition.

A cold motor actually will run leaner (actual runing state) because it cant vaporise all the fuel, leaving small liquid droplets unburned so I am not saying a cold engine runs richer but it creates a rich condition. because of unburned fuel.
this is a whole other topic.. but wanted to explain the theory at least.


before I spent any money on a tuner I would try leaning your current map out at idle. and see what happens. sounds like you have your original map saved . so it would be worth a try.
with the PC you can actually decrease or increase the fuel while it is running. try hooking up the laptop and decreasing fuel when it is cold. that is going to also lean it out in the same area when it is hot but maybe that what it needed all along.
just something to try .

I did try it without the PC, and saying it didnt run very well would be an understatement

In any event, yes I do have the map. I do not have access to a laptop so this could end up being a time consuming deal.
Should I just be looking to lean it at 0 tp idle rpm's? What increments of adjustment should I start with?

[ryanl]

Originally Posted by Antonio Pendejo

Numbers (enrichment) in the zero TP column of your map were put there to eliminate exhaust popping during decel. Save your original map, then go in and eliminate or just reduce the numbers in the zero column, reload and give it a try. What plugs are you running? If you are running a colder than stock plug it will prolong the amount of time it takes for the motor to reach operating temp. Not a big issue during the warm months but may be noticeable when it is cold outside.
AP

running ngk's, thanks I will try messing with the map after the bike cools down.

[strokerjlk]

Originally Posted by ryanl

I did try it without the PC, and saying it didnt run very well would be an understatement

In any event, yes I do have the map. I do not have access to a laptop so this could end up being a time consuming deal.
Should I just be looking to lean it at 0 tp idle rpm's? What increments of adjustment should I start with?

yes 0 % @
750
1000
1250 rpm's
I would go 5-10 to start with and increase or decrease it from there if you get it to lean you will know it! LOL
no problem just using a desk top if ya have the 9 v battery attachment or the ac power supply. if you had a lap top it would just be quicker and allow you to see the response as it is running before it warms up.

[ryanl]

Originally Posted by strokerjlk

yes 0 % @
750
1000
1250 rpm's
I would go 5-10 to start with and increase or decrease it from there if you get it to lean you will know it! LOL
no problem just using a desk top if ya have the 9 v battery attachment or the ac power supply. if you had a lap top it would just be quicker and allow you to see the response as it is running before it warms up.

Alright just did it in increments of 5, still rich. But the bike is warm now, so gonna wait awhile. The #'s were quite high in these areas,

500=18
750=20
1000=21
1250=22

After that #'s are all at 10 or below in the 0% throttle. Gonna drop another 5 and try it again if the bike cools down before football starts.

Thanks again guys.