Troubleshooting - Hard Starting

[groucho56]

Need some troubleshooting ideas.

I have an '02 Roadking with alittle over 62K miles, with a big bore kit (95") and geared cams. The compression ratio is 9.6/1.

She used to start on the first blip of the starter button. But when the engine is cold, it has to turn over a few times before it fires. Then it runs great.

But the real problem is when the engine is hot, it sometimes it takes several tries to get her running.

I'm not a mechanic, but the problem seems to be compression related, because the starter gear will jump loose. The battery is fully charged.

How can I troubleshoot this?

I wonder if an intake leak can cause this? I seem to remember someone saying you can test for an intake leak by spraying WD-40 around the intake while it is running. If the idle changes, you have a leak.

Any ideas is appreciated.

Thanks,
Ken

[TXCHOP]

My WILD guess..lifters bleeding down...

Try a ccp test cold and hot.

And the test i think you are thinking of is for intake leaks, not exhaust.

[groucho56]

Dumb question - how can hard starting be caused by the lifter bleeding down?

And yes now that you mention it, that is an intake leak troubleshooting tip. My bad.

Thanks,
Ken

[Kenney]

Is the bike EFI or Carb?
Any other symptoms? (Backfiring on deceleration, or downshifting) This would indicate an intake leak also. (Yes spraying WD40 around the intake manifold while running and getting an increase in RPM’s is correct for troubleshooting an intake leak)
How old are the sparkplugs? What is their condition? (white / light brown, or black /wet, etc)

Please try to explain more about “because the starter gear will jump loose”.

[1949shoebox]

you have quite a bit of miles on the starter. two things...1. your starter brushes are most likely worn 2. try starting the bike in neutral with the clutch pulled in- saves the life of your starter and battery! less work for the starter to do...

[groucho56]

Kenney,

You asked:

Is the bike EFI or Carb?
EFI


Any other symptoms? (Backfiring on deceleration, or downshifting)
No, backfire. Has a PowerCommander and ever since it was dyno-tuned, it has not backfired in years.

How old are the sparkplugs? What is their condition? (white / light brown, or black /wet, etc)
I change plugs out every 5k miles. They have about 2.5K on them now. Light brown in color.

About the gear jump, (mostly when hot) the engine seems to be harder to turn over. That's why I have a gut feeling it's something to do with either compression working against the starter or (as the other gentleman said) maybe the starter is getting worn out.

I read somewhere that they fixed a similar situation by replacing the compensator? I think they are talking about the stator. (?) <shrug>

Appreciate everyone's help.

Ken

[TXCHOP]

My guess on the lifters was if they have 60k on them on a mild build, they are probably due for replacement. If a lifter bleeds down on starting the cranking is affected because the valves dont open as they should. If you by chance have adjustable pushrods, you can try sinking adjusting the pushrods deeper in the lifter.

Again, just a guess, without seeing the bike..........as there are a gaggle of other things that can cause startign problems, like battery cables, battery, ground connections, timing advance...etc...etc...

[hdryder]

Interesting that its only when hot, but a bad fuel line in the tank might be suspect as well. If you havnt yet had to replace the check valve assembly on your bike being an 02 I'm guessing your getting close to rubbing through the line.

[Kenney]

Sorry, I can't be of more help. Plugs look / sound good (light brown - tan in color) No backfiring, compression shouldn't have changed sence it was built unless something big has gone bad - valves, lifters, cam, etc.
I would lean toward the starter but you need to have the dealer or someone that knows what they are doing look at it.
PS the compensator that is mentionted is the compensator nut that has been know to come loose and cause problems but from what you have described that doesn't fit, (i think)
Good luck and keeep us posted.

[Antonio Pendejo]

Ok, I'll take a stab at this. PowerCommander. Try turning on the ignition and hit the starter immediately. Don't let all the dash lights go out, just hit the starter. The bike should light right off.
Now, turn the ignition switch on, fiddle around with the radio, put on your sunglasses, check yourself out in the rearviews, adjust your package, make sure the trans is in neutral then hit the starter. Took a few revs to light off the the engine, didn't it. PowerCommander, it's what they do.
AP

[groucho56]

To address some of the suggestions:

Lifters - replaced a couple of years ago so (I hope) that's not the solution.

Changed out the fuel filter earlier this year, along with the convoluted plastic pipe. I think that's good.

Wires changed in the last year. Plugs changed every 5k miles.

Next on the list is to check the battery cables and ground. Maybe test the battery, but that's only 2 years old and on the tender when not out on the road... but... anything is possible there.

And I'll have to see what happens on the idea of turning it on and hitting the starter right away. (I always wait for the fuel pump to pump up.)

What gets me is when its hot, it *seems* to have a hard time pushing over the engine *maybe* due to more compression when it is hot <shrug.. I don't know>. Couple that with an original OEM starter on a 95" build that's got 42k on it.

My guess at this point is starter, but I just don't know.

Thanks guys for throwing out your ideas.

Ken
'02 Roadking w/62k miles
95", geared cams, EFI, PowerCommander
101 HP / 106 Torque

[1949shoebox]

i have the same problem with my 95 kit , but the stock 95 run the same starter... i have 80,000 on the stock starter- you should be good there...did it start easier if you pull in the clutch and have the bike in neutral during start up

[TriLs]

Compression releases?

[groucho56]

Originally Posted by TriLs

Compression releases?

Never had compression releases.

I've been on the road recently, so I haven't been able to try starting with the clutch in or trying to start right after turning the ignition on.

I'll report back sometime this weekend.

Thanks again.

Ken

[HDdrummer]

Compression reliefs should have been installed at the time of the big bore kit. It is a shame it wasn't recommended by the dealer or person doing the job. Reliefs make for easier starts on a hot engine.

You can always have the heads removed and reliefs installed.