Another Cam Tensioner replacment thread

[TERMINKNOTTER]

My bike is an 03 RKC, 65K miles. At 18K I have a tensioner fail. Extended warranty replaced along with oil pump. At 20K thrust washer failed. Warranty replaced, rebuilt most of engine but top end. Heard a noise in cam cavity about 1/2 mile out from home.Sounded like a piece of metal bouning around at RPM above 2K. Outer tensioner blew apart, along with chain guide. Oil pump looks good. I've got the top end apart as I had a gasket leak.

Before I start to put all back together, what all should I be thinking of replacing, upgrading. I'm thinking new inner bearings, new lifters.

Thought about a mild cam, any recommendations ? 90% solo rider, 5% 2 up, 5% hauling trailer.

Should I go with existing style tensioner, our newer hydraulic ?

Open to suggestions.

[Johnny Ray]

I am going with the HD Hydraulic Tensioner Kit #25284-08.

I've heard good things about it and decided that was the way I am going.

Some people like the gear drive assemblies also.

[frankysfree]

S+S 510 gear drive. good all around cam, and no more tensioner trouble

[kink04fxd]

Originally Posted by frankysfree

S+S 510 gear drive. good all around cam, and no more tensioner trouble

6000 trouble free miles since March.

[Fathead99]

Originally Posted by Johnny Ray

I am going with the HD Hydraulic Tensioner Kit #25284-08.

I've heard good things about it and decided that was the way I am going.

Some people like the gear drive assemblies also.

That's what I'm thinking too. I am trying to keep the cost down, but I don't want to shoot myself in the foot by not replacing bearings (inner & outer) and maybe, maybe new cams. I was at the HD site looking at the Hydraulic kit, but could not determine if it included the outer bearing in the new cam support plate.
I don't want any gear noise, but gears are still a possibility at this time. L8r.

[shovelmike]

It's your call but I would go with gear drive cams, 10,000 miles on mine and I love them. I don't find the gear noise objectionable at all.
Definitely replace bearings as you said, Timken inners. Get the proper tools: bearing installation removal tool, oil pump alignment tools (EVO lifter block pins same thing), cam installation/removal tools etc. I even bought a hydraulic press, available for about $120 from various sources on the internet, the less you have to farm out to others the better...if you want it done right do it yourself.

[springer-]

Not all bikes are "Prime" candidates for gear drive. In the case of the original poster and the number and types of failures, I would consider the hydraulic setup.

Common misconception, use gears and never worry about it or go in there again. Problem with that is the lifters are a wear item as well. Even if you have gear drive cams we recommend changing the lifters every 30K miles as a routine maintenance item. Depending on pushrods used, just changing the lifters doesn't require opening the cam chest area. But it is not that much more work to R&R the tensioners as well.

Gear drive cams also require the pinion runout to be within spec and few seem to be these days. Without the added expense of servicing the flywheels the hydraulic conversion is nice. In many instances, the chain tensioners are still more than adequate.

Some things to consider before making a choice. How long will you own the bike? How many miles do you ride per year? Do you do your own maintenance?

First, How long will you own your bike? If you are the type that buys a new bike every 2-3 years then why spend the money on gear cams to give them away when you get a new bike?

Second, How many miles do you ride per year? If you put on 20-30K per year, then you would be changing tensioners every year or so. At that point the cost of tensioners is going to add up and surpass the cost of gears or hydraulic conversion in a few years. But what if you are a weekender and you only put on 5-6K miles per year? That equates to changing tensioners every 5 or 6 years. It will be 18+ years before you recoup the gear drive costs, if you even keep the bike that long. And don't forget if you are in the 20-30K mile group of riders, get in there and change the lifters every year or so.

Third, Do you do your own maintenance? If you do your own maintenance and depending on the mileage you ride yearly, tensioners and lifters are not that big a deal. The labor savings should also figure in to the above mentioned considerations.

I am neither for or against Gear drive or Chain drive cams. I am however for making a good choice that fits your needs and your situation as everyone is different. There is no One answer that fits everyone.

Change out your inner cam bearings while in there .... http://www.bigboyzheadporting.com/showthread.php?t=88

[frankysfree]

the gear drive setup is one of the best mods on the market in my opinion.

Have a customer of mine that owns a 2000 heritage. he currently has little over 300k miles on the same set of gear drive S+S cams!!!!! he has worn out the engine 3 times and still running the same gear drive in every new engine(one rebuild, two reman's from H-D) if that isnt proof to how the gear drive holds up i dont know what is.

the problem with excessive noise on the gear drive setup is almost always the wrong cam gear being installed. in the kit you get the standard gear but you are supposed to check the backlash and change out to the appropiate gear if necessary. you WILL have a slight noise regardless because gears are slightly noisier by nature but after the first ride it isnt even noticeable.

fun fact. remember when H-D sued S+S in court for patent infringement on theyre engines and tryed to shut S+S down? they ultimatley lost the lawsuit. later on down the road H-D actually tryed to contract with S+S for the use of its gear driven setup in all new harleys(S+S holds the patent). S+S turned them down. lots of animosity there.

[TERMINKNOTTER]

Keep the thoughts coming. Right now I'm leaning towards the roller chain drive conversion, with a set of 21N Andrews cam, changing the inner bearings and new lifters. Not sure if my bike is a candidate for gear drive, really getting tired of dealing with the current tensioner setup, constantly checking, rolling the dice on the next failure.

Anyone have a inner cam bearing remover/installer tool they would care to loan (with a deosit) or rent. I'd pay for the shipping.

I ride 10-15K per year, do my own wrenching. I go 200-225#'s usually solo riding, pull a trailer about once a month. Ride the backroads and interstate about 50/50, all depends where I'm heading.

[springer-]

Originally Posted by frankysfree

fun fact. remember when H-D sued S+S in court for patent infringement on theyre engines and tryed to shut S+S down? they ultimatley lost the lawsuit. later on down the road H-D actually tryed to contract with S+S for the use of its gear driven setup in all new harleys(S+S holds the patent). S+S turned them down. lots of animosity there.

The fun fact is Harley didn't try to shut down S&S, they just stopped them from producing Twin Cam Engine Cases and parts and they WON that case. They also stopped Delkron.

I would like to see something factual about HD wanting S&S gear drive. I tend doubt that is the case because they would have to resolve the pinion shaft run out issue. Also HD would likely be able to use gear drive if they wanted to since they have a long history of gear cams in sportster engines as well as others. The gear system itself is also used in many other engines as well as automotive engines and is not something new that S&S developed as their own original idea. I am sure that S&S holds a patent on the current system but HD could design a new system that did not infringe upon any patent that S&S currently owns.

Below are the facts of the case between HD, S&S and Delkron.

Harley-Davidson recently filed a lawsuit against aftermarket engine builders S&S Cycles and Delkron, claiming the companies violated patent rights on certain engine components, as well as company trademarks.

Filed in the U.S. District Court for the Eastern District of Wisconsin (Case No. 05-C-0298) on March 17, 2005, the lawsuit alleges that the companies copied parts related to the Harley-Davidson Twin Cam 88 engine (right), as well as violating Harley-Davidson trademarked names, including Evolution, FXR, Softail, Twin Cam 88 and Sportster, as well as some common-law trademarks such as Evo, Shovel and others.

The lawsuit appears to represent a change in Harley's relationship with the huge, V-twin aftermarket industry. After years of building thousands of engines that shared interchangeable parts with Harley production engines, the aftermarket companies now find themselves at odds with the Motor Company.

Harley-Davidson and S&S Cycle recently announced an agreement settling a lawsuit Harley filed last year alleging trademark infringement.

The companies announced the resolution of the suit in identical press releases dated April 21, 2006. S&S agreed to redesign its crankcases and oiling systems—two of the major issues that led H-D to sue S&S and Delkron in March, 2005.

S&S, an aftermarket engine and parts manufacturer, also agreed to rewrite its product descriptions, which was another aspect of the lawsuit.

Here is a link to the rest of the story if you want to get the correct information ... http://www.amadirectlink.com/news/2006/HDsuit.asp

[TERMINKNOTTER]

Decided to do the convwersion with the 21N cam. Have all the parts on order, will change out inner bearings and go with new lifters.