TC88 Timing : V-Twin Forum: Harley Davidson Forums

Fathead99 · 08-16-2009, 02:06 AM

My 1999 RKC stopped running 5 weeks ago and it was towed to the local dealer. With 75k miles on it, they found a permanent "out of sync" error, indicating the cam and crank were out of sync. They replaced both position sensors, but that did not correct the problem. I got the bike back and am wondering where to start.
I'm thinking I want to install the hydraulic tensioner set up and get back on the road. Any ideas? Perhaps gears instead? Thanks.

baggersport · 08-16-2009, 10:49 AM

Has any maintenance or inspection been done in the gearcase? You should check the runout on the pinion shaft before deciding on gear drive.

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Fathead99 · 08-16-2009, 11:48 AM

If by gearcase you mean where the cams are located, the stock cam chain tensioners were replaced at 71.5k. They cut the stock push rods out and installed SE adjustables. I think that is where all my problems started. I did get a 3k mile roundtrip to L.A. and back. Fifty miles later, the bike stalled and is very difficult to get started again. Some have suggested the cam chain is worn just enough to cause the problem. I intend to do the work myself, but will have a local indy do any measuring for tolerances and wear. I haven't been inside a Harley engine before, but I won't hesitate to open it. Thanks for the help.

springer- · 08-16-2009, 12:08 PM

I don't think I can get on board with the chain wear theory. If you suspect anything with the adjustable pushrods that is an easy check. Pop the clips and make sure none have loosened up though I don't believe that will be the cause of the out of sync error.

I am not sure as this has not come up before but does the hydraulic tensioner setup support using a cam sensor in the MM EFI system? It would be worth looking into before spending the money. Not saying it won't work just never gave the cam sensor any thought before.

Being a 99 Twin Cam engine, there was a issue with one of the outer cam bearings. Assuming you have stock cams, I would consider looking into some additional maintenance. I know you said the tensioners have been replaced. Have the inner cam bearings been replaced? Stock they are INA caged bearings and replacing them with a Torrington full compliment (non-caged) bearing would be a good move that this time. Also the outer cam bearings, if still stock might still have the "bad" design bearing. Change it out as well. Only a guess but there may be enough play in them to cause your out of sync issue???? FYI, not speaking from experience, just a guess.

Have you checked the connection at the ECM? It may be worth a look to make sure there are no corroded connections. Pull the negative battery terminal. Then unplug the ECM and inspect the connections carefully, green oxidized terminals are not good.

BTW, did they change the lifters when they did the tensioners? We recommend changing the lifters every 30K miles, cheap insurance.

Fathead99 · 08-16-2009, 12:54 PM

Thanks Springer. It's a bit of a story, but I'll try to keep it short and to the point.
I rode 70k care free miles and then the engine developed a whine. I rode another 1500 before stopping at a dealership to have it checked. They replaced the tensioners ( http://www.ballzowt.com/photos/camtensioners.jpg ) and sent me on my way that Saturday night. The next morning, 100 miles into my 750 mile ride home, I stopped for a bite to eat and discovered oil pouring from the front of the cam cover where they had left a bolt out, period. I took it back and managed to get home that evening. They had the bike for 3 weeks and claimed to have done the cam bearings in an attempt to make things good. I just don't know. I'll be looking at the bearings.
I think I want to install this: http://www.harley-davidson.com/gma/g...8&default=none
In response to the pushrod adjustments, the local dealer said they had the bike running and were able to confirm their proper adjustment. No lifter work to my knowledge.
And I will look at the ECM. That's cheap! Thanks for your help.

Fathead99 · 08-30-2009, 12:41 PM

I removed the cam cover this morning and the two visible gears appear to be in alignment. I truly believe this is still a timing problem. Where and how can I definitely confirm my timing is correct? I did check the wiring underneath and it all looked fine. Also, with original cam bearings inside at 76k, I need to go deeper anyways.

Does anybody use chat here? I've never seen anyone in there.

lowrider01 · 08-30-2009, 10:11 PM

do you have a service manual ? if not get the HD manual..it is well worth the $...i would go into the cam chest to see for myself what is wrong...if a adjustable prod came un adjusted it would have shut down,,,dont ask how i know...but it is possible that it was on its way when you shut it off....its a easy look..pop the covers and see...let us know what ya find....maybe we can help...

springer- · 08-30-2009, 10:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fathead99

Does anybody use chat here? I've never seen anyone in there.

Yes, usually in the evenings.

Fathead99 · 08-31-2009, 11:10 AM

Low, I bought the book with the new bike in 98, and it appears to have been a very good investment. The local said they were able to get the bike running, took it for a test ride, and checked the adjustments on the pushrods and that they checked out ok. I have no way of knowing if they're just yanking my chain or what.
I'm at this point because the local D said I have a code 56, permanent out of synch. Could a prod do that? I have always believed, since the tensioner replacement, that one of them was adjusted wrong because of the tapping noise that comes and goes from the front jug.
Before I remove the primary cam chain and the support plate, I think I want to adjust the prods myself. Never done this before, and although http://www.bigboyzcycles.com/showthread.php?t=131 has very specific instructions on how to do this (THANKS bigboyzcycles!), I'm not sure what cam overlap means or how to recognize it. I think it's when both lobes are at their lowest point, but I don't know how to identify that exact spot.
Kinda sucks that I have the cam cover off and I'm going backwards to check the prod adjustments. I'll have to reassemble, oil up and try to start to see if that was the real problem.
I'm wondering if there is a way to check the adjustments as it sits. And if they are correct, can they be turned?
I'm gonna go take a look. Thanks Low!

And thanks to you too Springer. I'll see you there.

Fathead99 · 09-20-2009, 10:16 AM

I had a small setback recently. MF's broke in and stole most of my tools.

So, fuel pressure check out as being fine(43psi) yesterday, but when I turn the ignition on, the pressure hits 43, then immediately starts dropping quickly. Also, the bike ran for about 2 minutes, once. Kinda rough, but it ran and the pressure was steady. I never got it started again. I looked at the spark issue and it sure appeared as if it was missing at the beginning of each test, for each cylinder. With limited tools, I will be trying to meter the coil today.

msocko3 · 09-20-2009, 03:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fathead99

I had a small setback recently. MF's broke in and stole most of my tools.

That sucks, I hope they get caught. I do have to suggest 3 little words.... Monitored Alarm System.

bruggy55 · 09-24-2009, 09:20 PM

Fathead99
This is a stretch, but the 99's came from the factory with a key cast in the large cam sprocket. Maybe it hasn't been up dated and the internal cam key has started to shear. If you remove the bolt and heavy washer from the large sprocket you will be able to see if your cam has a single key, or if it has the updated splined cam and sprocket. Also if its been updated you should also have a roller bearing on the rear cam, rather then a ball bearing.
Good Luck!
Bruggy55

A-one · 09-24-2009, 10:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bruggy55

Fathead99
This is a stretch, but the 99's cam from the factory with a key cast in the large cam sprocket. Maybe it hasn't been up dated and the internal cam key has started to shear. If you remove the bolt and heavy washer from the large sprocket you will be able to see if your cam has a single key, or if it has the updated splined cam and sprocket. Also if its been updated you should also have a roller bearing on the rear cam, rather then a ball bearing.
Good Luck!
Bruggy55

I don't think that's a stretch at all. That was a known problem with '99 TC's rear cam sprocket, and that sprocket has the ring on it that the position sensor reads. Good call.

wrongsideup · 10-13-2009, 11:00 PM

I got and still have that code on my 2000 ultra. Bike runs fine. I was on another harley forum site and posed that same problem there. I got a reply that the early baggers had that code come up often. It was more of a nusinse than a real problem. Harley took that cosde out on the newer model bikes. He said the bike when starting will sometimes run backward for a moment if you don't crank it right away and that will send that code. Made sense to me. I'm not an expert but , I'll go with it.

Fathead99 · 10-15-2009, 06:25 PM

I appreciate the insight wrongside. The troubleshooting process has slowed since school started a few weeks ago. That and my tools were stolen from the garage. I did get some codes read from the flashing engine light, and they are 16, 41 and 56. The document I have which lists those codes is difficult for me to understand, but what I do take away from it is that I will be measuring the crank position sensor resistance as instructed in the manual. I'll post any progress.