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Cam chain tensioner failure survey

432K views 687 replies 357 participants last post by  <G Man> 
#1 ·
I would be really interested on who has actually had a cam chain tensioner failure, what year of bike and how many miles. Also was it covered under warranty. It does not have to be a catastrophic failure can include worn beyond factory specs.

It would be interesting to see if there is a pattern that developes.

I had a 2003 Ultra with 40,000 miles that was beyond factory specs and replaced under extended warranty in 2005.

Doug
 
#434 ·
Two weeks ago, I had an interesting conversation with a rep from the Torrington bearing company. He said they tried to get Harley to use them in their/our motors but HD said no. To costly for HD. I replaced my stock bearings when I did my hydraulic conversion with Andrews 21n cams. I bought the Torringtons from Herko and when you compare the construction of both, you'll see why you want the Torringtons. If you do the chain/tensioner conversion, replace those bearing!
 
#437 ·
The Torrington rep was talking about stock bearings....not Screaming Eagle parts. It's interesting to note that the bearing in Flyer's photo is dated 9/2010 but only fits HDs up to 05 or 06....see the label. Anybody find a Torrington in the newer bikes?
 
#439 ·
Bearing issues started back in the mid-90's when the MOCO went to the DNA inner bearing in the later model year EVO, so bearing issues pre-date the Twin Cam. If you ride a Harley you are going to have to pay the Harley tax. The MOCO introduces a new product line and lets us (the public) test ride it after they market it. They have been doing it forever and we just keep on buying the product. They are still turning out crap and letting the buying-public tell them what's wrong with it. If Harley Davidson was an automobile company....they would have been out of business years ago.

I have been through all the bearing failure issues and all the other issues and know of nobody that has successfully filed, or won a class-action lawsuit, so get that out of your head.

If you trade this thing...you are not going to know what you are getting. Fix the one you have now with upgraded components, like the hydraulic kit, replace the inner DNA cam bearings with the Timken/Torrington and be done with it. There is no reason why the bike won't run on out well past 100,000 miles and you will know what you have. I ride with people that have well over 100,000 miles on these Twin Cams and some bumping up close to 200,000 miles.

Pay the Harley tax, fix the bike and be done with it. If you want to change cams to try and achieve a performance increase......go ahead, but I find it hard to notice 3-4 more claimed HP for the money invested.
 
#443 ·
Early on, before the advent of gear-drives and hydraulic tensioners, one of the more popular "fixes" was to remove and polish the silent chains. When I installed my hydraulic conversion kit, I left my stock chains in. I figured they had been pretty well polished after 45,000 miles of pressing up against the spring tensioner shoes and there was no use in polishing another set of chains. None of my spring tensioner shoes were ever worn over...maybe 1/16th. inch (two sets). They had just flaked all to he!! and back.
 
#445 ·
Does the Harley upgrade kit allow you to use the old chains? Because if you use the new roller chain system (Andrews cams with stock Harley 2007 parts) you couldn't use your old chains. It uses different sprockets and chains.
 
#444 · (Edited)
The problem with the old silent chain system is that it uses very high tension springs that maintain an extremely heavy, constant pressure on the tensioner shoes whether idling or going full bore. The new hydraulic tensioner shoes maintain pressure according to the output of the oil pump, which is controlled by the rpms of the crankshaft. There is almost no pressure on the shoes when they don't need it, i.e. idle, and the tension increases only to the level that's required according to the shaft rotation.

The old system is why S&S was able to use it's promotional demo of its gear drive system as an improvement over the old silent chain system. The spring-operated tensioner shoes were so tight that there was a noticeable amount of friction when turning the cam system, whereas gears reduced the friction. Not so with the newer roller chain system, which has less friction than the either the silent chain or the jury-rigged gear system and is superior to gears except in the most radical of cam lift/valve spring configurations.

Too bad Harley never accepted the responsibility for the inferior silent chain system and offered every owner of a Twin Cam up through 2006 (except 06 Dynas) an upgrade once it perfected the cam chain system with the roller chains and hydraulics in 2007. It took the innovation of companies such as Andrews Cams to come up with a fix by providing cams that could mate the old case bearings with the new cam support plate, oil pump, chains, sprockets, and hydraulic tensioners. The expensive cam upgrade kit Harley now offers is johnny-come-lately and half-assed. As much as I love the company and it's motorcycles, it screwed us on this one.

Same can be said for the lousy implementation of the six-speed transmission for the first two production years, but that's another story.
 
#447 ·
The Harley hydraulic upgrade kit allows you to do either...as in use the stock silent chains, or upgrade the front to the roller system. A new front roller system is included with the kit. There are two "buts".

It does not include the necessary components to convert the rear chain and it does not include the correct (driven) sprocket for the early models that sensed cam position off the driven sprocket. I believe that starting in 01 (not sure) you can convert the front to roller with the parts in the kit. So, if you have 01 and later...the kit will have the guts to convert the front chain to roller only. If you have the very early TC, you will have to purchase a conversion driven sprocket for the cam position sensor, if you want to change the front to roller.

I (like many others) simply stuck with the silent chains. I saw no need in going to the expense of half-assing the thing with a roller in front and a silent in the rear. My reasoning was the silent chains had rubbed on the spring tensioner shoes for thousands of miles and self-polished themselves.

It's a partial fix, but it still is one hell-of-an-improvement over what's in there now. Harley calls it a "hybrid" kit and that is exactly what it is. It provides the new hydraulic shoe tensioner system, but it does not completely convert the system to full roller chain. The kit includes the front half for the 01 and later models, but not the back half for a full roller conversion on any model.

If nothing else, you gain the new tensioner system and shoes that can be replaced without all the special tools, as well as the larger oil pump and a much stronger support plate. The new tensioner shoes simply bolt-off/bolt-on when-and-if they need service.

I don't have a clue as to how much difference in wear there may be on the new shoes with the silent vs. the roller chains...I suppose time will tell.
 
#452 ·
I used Andrews conversion cams - they are 07+ design with inner cam bearing size of pre-06. You get both 07+ tensioner / chain setups with that, if you opt for the SE plate like I did you also get the bronze cam-plate bearings.
 
#448 ·
Hate to ask this but I am new to the Harley world... Just traded in a 2010 Honda Goldwing and now have a 2005 Road King with about 25000 + miles and a 2009 Ultra Classic that has 5700 miles on it now. I have been reading these posts about chain tensioner failures and want to know what I need to check or do on either of my bikes?
Especially the 05 RK. What is best option to go with if I find my tensioners are either gone or gettn there soon? Has the issue been fixed on the 09 UC??
Thanks for any help with this.
 
#449 ·
IMHO....the 09....don't worry about it. It should be fine for many, many more miles. On the 05...you should have the tensioner shoes checked. Depending on the condition....you can run them on or go with one of the discussed conversions.

I certainly would not waste money on a stock spring tensioner replacement. The cost from the dealer is "usually" around $600-$700 for stock replacement and $1100-$1200 for the hydraulic upgrade. If they are in need of replacement....spend the money for the upgrade and then forget about it.
 
#450 ·
I'm just adding my 2¢. Previous posters on this and other threads have mentioned the heat/freeze method to remove cam bearings from the support plate. This worked like a charm. Heated the plate on my garage radiant propane heater and the bearings almost fell out.

Then I went to Autozone to rent the FREE blind hole bearing puller to remove the inner cam bearings and once again, it worked like a charm.

Thanks to all posters who led me down the right (cheap and easy) path to success.

Now just tell me if I should be the Andrews gear drive kit or the Harley hybrid kit. I'm looking for 100% reliability first, cost second.

Thanks again all!
 
#451 ·
While Andrews and many others make a gear drive kit, I wouldn't recommend gear drive unless you're going with a radical, hi-lift cam. Don't confuse Andrews' gear drive kits with the roller chain kit. Andrews sells a conversion kit that will take the pre-07 Twin Cam silent chain system (except 06 Dyna, which was the first bike to have the roller chain system) to the roller chain system that's used in today's Twin Cams.

This is a much better and cleaner upgrade than using the Harley hybrid kit. I don't know why Harley even sells such a thing other than let you use your existing stock cams, which are inferior to just about any grind out there. Probably something to do with the EPA, but who knows? With the Harley kit you end up with the old cam plate configuration with the ball and needle bearings, and the bearings have to be pulled off and pressed on.

The Andrews approach is simply special camshafts with the journals ground to mate in the case with the older Twin Cams and in the front with the new Twin Cam support plate. You DON"T NEED TO HEAT AND PULL THE FRONT CAM BEARINGS BECAUSE YOU ARE NOT GOING TO NEED THEM! The new cam plate uses no ball or needle bearings so the cams simply slip in and out. They are lubricated by a generous supply of oil from the new beefier oil pump. If you want, you can buy the cams from Andrews and assemble the other parts yourself because they are all stock Harley parts used in the new roller chain Twin Cams. Andrews just makes it easy by bundling all of them in with its cams but you'll pay full retail for them. Most people use the 21n cams because they beef up the bottom end torque and require no retuning or special valve springs, but Andrews has all of its cams available in the 'N' configuration for this upgrade.

I installed the Andrews-style roller chain upgrade with hydraulic tensioner shoes on my 05 Road King four years ago at 38,450 miles using 21n cams. I did it myself for about $800 including special tools to pull and replace the inner case bearings and lock the sprockets in order to get the screw off the drive sprocket. I have almost 95,000 on the bike now and have had no problems. I pulled the cam cover about two years ago and there was virtually no wear on the hydraulic tensioner shoes.

I have friends who went with geared cams and almost all of them whine like hell. If most people didn't have such loud pipes they would notice the whine immediately.

I took a chance on the Andrews upgrade because it had just come out. But I'm glad I did. Andrews helped me by providing advice; I could get a tech on phone anytime I called. I'd advise anyone who's contemplating the upgrade to give them a call before doing anything.
 
#453 ·
Glad to hear you have "mastered" the oven-to-freezer-to-oven technique. Old-time mechanics have been using the process for years and years on all types of mechanical equipment. I had all the "special tools" at one time, but never took them out of the box and eventually sold them. Only thing I keep now is the sprocket-locking tool and some guys have figured out a way to use a small socket for that.

I don't know what 100% reliability is and I have learned to not even consider the term on my Harley's. I love them...but we have what we have. I suggest sticking with as many MOCO parts and systems as you can. Keep it as stock as possible, especially if you travel. The likely hood of you finding replacement parts and even getting anybody to fix it is going to be better if you stick with the Harley stuff. I just have not read a lot of information concerning the hydraulic tensioner failures. They may be breaking....but you don't see much about failure as you do the spring tensioners. I have seen a picture of one set of the hydraulic tensioner shoes with 30,000 miles on them showing no significant wear.

But then again...I don't see a lot about the gear-drive failures either. I suppose it just gets down to the $ you want to spend and how you feel about it. This can be as opinionated as a lubricant argument.
 
#454 ·
In 05 before taking my road trip to Alaska I went in to my cam case with about 50,000 miles on it on my 02 Ultra. The nylon on both cam chain shoes was eat clear through and wearing on the metal arms. I replaced everything in the cam case but the cam plate. This was before HD had the hydraulic set up.

About 6 months ago at around 80,000 miles I put the SE hydraulic cam plate set up in it. I got the kit for around $350. This day and age you will pay 2/3 that or better for just the shoes and chains for the older style and then you do not have the up date 06 Dyna or 07 and later oil pump. I only have about 5,000 on the SE set up but so far I am very happy with it.
 
#458 ·
I hope you like and have less trouble with your DD6 then I and some others have. I have spent a lot of money on trying things in my 40 years of riding Harley s but the DD6 was the biggest waste I have every had. In my opinion not worth the money. I hope yours works out better for you. Good luck.
 
#457 ·
When I bought my 05 Ultra with about 23000 miles on it, that was the first thing I had checked. Inner cam tensioner was 90% eaten through and replaced under extended warranty. Shortly after I started getting top end noise and lived with it for about 10000 miles. Finally decided to open it up and see what was going on. The verdict was excessive wear caused by the degraded oil pump operation due to damage from the cam tensioner pieces. Extended warranty again paid for the repair and it fixed the problem. Needless to say, I like the extended warranty...a lot. :D

By contrast, when I saw the tensioners in the Ultra I had my 04 RK changed over to the new style cam plate and tensioners (also about 23000 mi) and the tensioners were barely worn. Go figure.
 
#460 ·
I checked my tensioners last weekend, only 18000km / 11000ish miles and they looked like they hadn't even broken the gloss off the surface. If you looked hard the chain may have dug in almost 0.5mm.

This is the new 06 dyna hydraulic style system I'm talking about.
 
#461 ·
2K...cut a filer open now and then and inspect it for little shards of orange particles. Sometimes, they may show little wear but would will be flaking. Do the little particles of shoe hurt anything...I don't know and the oil filter catches those. They still go through the oil pump and flow around in the bottom end as the pump relief valve functions and I don't know of anyone being able to claim that a flake caused a failure. My only point is to watch for the flaking and if they start to show-up in the filter...I'd yank them out. The last set I pulled out of mine when I went to the hydraulic conversion showed slight wear, but they were truly coming all to pieces a little hunk at a time.
 
#463 ·
02 FLHT with 24k miles. Out of warranty. Dealer said it was my fault because I didn't inspect it at 30k. I reminded him in that case it failed 6k before the recommended inspection. He told me I could purchase a hydraulic cam support plate. Not even a discount was offerred. Took my money to Chicago HD for -20%.
 
#465 ·
I have my 2008 SG (33K miles) apart for a 107" build and both tensioners are worn. The outer tensioner is worse than the inner. The shoe surfaces are grooved and the grooves are pitted. I will be replacing both.
 
#467 ·
ive been reading this thread for the last month and a half ever since i heard the whirring noise coming from my motor on my 02 roadking....took the bike to my dealer since we have no independant harley mechanics here in southeast illinois....a little background....bike had 41000 miles...have ran synthetic oil ever since harley brought out theirs...last several years have ran mobil 1....outside tensioner was completely shot and down to metal..inside was getting there....worst thing was that when they were in the cam case they found one of the cams was wore....one of harleys famous soft cams...called harley of course they wouldnt do anything....ended up putting eveything in new....the updated cam plate, hydraulic tensioners, torrington inner bearings..new lifters.and a couple of 203 cams..total bill was $1800 ....the only good thing about this episode was the cams made a difference....it sounds like a harley now and a noticeable difference in torque....so anyway thats my 2 cents worth.....cant wait to do the rest of the motor this winter....
 
#468 ·
As our Twincams grow older and the relationship deepens, we owe it to them to fix this problem. Even though it's upsetting that HD has messed up the original design, it's really the only flaw in this generation of bikes. Once sorted, all is set for a lifetime love affair. I think, it's well worth the trouble & expense.

....ended up putting eveything in new....the updated cam plate, hydraulic tensioners, torrington inner bearings..new lifters.and a couple of 203 cams..total bill was $1800 ....the only good thing about this episode was the cams made a difference....it sounds like a harley now and a noticeable difference in torque.......
 
#470 ·
Mine are OK!

Finally got around to inspecting my cam tensioners, boy was I happy with the results. Front looked like new, only some brown discoloration where the chain slides with no detectable groove. Back was worn slightly more but only enough to tell it had a small lip and a little more discoloration. Bike has 50k on it, run Mobile 1 v-twin since new. Thanks to all on the forum for the tips on inspecting the inner with the dental mirror. If all my reading about tensioner wear is true it seems I must have gotten a smooth chain. I feel lucky. Went in with the notion of puttin in the Andrews conversion kit with the new oil pump,hydraulic tensioners and 21n cams. Gonna just button it back up and check em again at 75k. Saved me bout 800 bucks but I was kinda lookin forward to the new cams.
 
#471 ·
Good see that an 06 motor is ok. Finally HD appeared to have fixed the tensioner problem (by having chains produced to spec) and then they ditch it for another 'unknown' design - weird. But as Donny P. said, HDs are being made ever cheaper to compete in the market and I guess that's the real reason. I feel the best Twincams are models between 2000 - 2002 with the cam drive mod we talk about here. If you want power, a set of 1550 pots with forged Wiseco flattop pistons and a mild Andrews cam - then you are set to beat the latest stock Harleys in a drag contest.

Finally got around to inspecting my cam tensioners, boy was I happy with the results. Front looked like new, only some brown discoloration where the chain slides with no detectable groove. Back was worn slightly more but only enough to tell it had a small lip and a little more discoloration. Bike has 50k on it, run Mobile 1 v-twin since new. Thanks to all on the forum for the tips on inspecting the inner with the dental mirror. If all my reading about tensioner wear is true it seems I must have gotten a smooth chain. I feel lucky. Went in with the notion of puttin in the Andrews conversion kit with the new oil pump,hydraulic tensioners and 21n cams. Gonna just button it back up and check em again at 75k. Saved me bout 800 bucks but I was kinda lookin forward to the new cams.
 
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