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Old 12-20-2012, 03:45 AM   #166 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Psycle View Post
I know very little about weaponry. But I've got a serious question for the second amendment enthusiasts around here. Where should the line be drawn? Does anyone believe in private ownership of rockets and grenade launchers? Other war weapons? If not, where is the line that represents what you think it is ok and not ok for private citizen to have?
Seems to me Mike that there are already lines drawn and by some of the stats you can see in the posts above further line drawing isn't what keeps people safer, just the opposite. Weapons of war, RPG 's n such explosives you can't legally get anyway, unless there's something I don't know...
Here in NH we can buy fully automatic weapons. The way it was explained to me is you gotta get a serious background check that takes months, as opposed to a roughly 20min process for handguns and if I understood the guy at the shop right there's some kind of tax you pay xtra, $200
I personally feel there should be no line as Long as you go thru your states approval process. I'm talkin no line regarding traditional semi auto weaponry and down. This scare campaign regarding assault this and assault that is really silly and in a lota cases these weapons are being criticized for what comes down to color, materials and stock shape /design.



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Old 12-20-2012, 07:07 AM   #167 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Psycle View Post
I know very little about weaponry. But I've got a serious question for the second amendment enthusiasts around here. Where should the line be drawn? Does anyone believe in private ownership of rockets and grenade launchers? Other war weapons? If not, where is the line that represents what you think it is ok and not ok for private citizen to have?
A good question.

Let's start with getting rid of a typical "red herring." The 2nd amendment has nothing to do with hunting. So the typical argument, that it's okay to have weapons for hunting..but...Doesn't apply to the discussion. That you would be free to own guns to hunt in 1791 was never under discussion, America was still knee deep in the fur trade at that point.

So the SCOTUS answered the question of "why" we have a 2nd Amendment, and the answer was "self defense." The case was the followed up with the question of whether "self defense" included hand guns and the right to carry concealed. Both were answered affirmatively.

However, they clearly stated that the government had the right to limit the types of weapons to those required for "self defense." The ban on fully-automatic weapons was upheld. The ban on handguns was rejected. I think that leaves a lot of room for further speculation, but it does eliminate tanks and RPGs.

If you put the question within the context of the Judeo-Christian belief system, and apply it to the Constitution, which is always necessary, because those are the conditions and to whom it was written for...you will find this FUNDAMENTAL understanding:

Quote:
“The act of self-defense can have a double effect: the preservation of one’s own life; and the killing of the aggressor.... The one is intended, the other is not.

T- 65 St. Thomas Aquinas, STh II-IIs
The inherent right of self defense of the individual, or nation, was upheld by the Church in the first 100 years after Christ and remains a fundamental principle of American Civil law through the writings by Blackstone and Locke.

The dividing line, as you call it, could therefore be defined as "whatever means necessary to allow you the right to self defense."
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Old 12-20-2012, 08:32 AM   #168 (permalink)
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GUNS = PROTECTION

ABORTION = SAD, ISN'T IT

Take our GUNS = STUPID

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Old 12-20-2012, 09:09 AM   #169 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Psycle View Post
I know very little about weaponry. But I've got a serious question for the second amendment enthusiasts around here. Where should the line be drawn? Does anyone believe in private ownership of rockets and grenade launchers? Other war weapons? If not, where is the line that represents what you think it is ok and not ok for private citizen to have?
I dont think anyone has the right to dictate what we own. Military spec weapons are a bit much but there enthusiasts that like those items and desire ownership. I think they should be allowed to posses these items. As far as simple citizens, if you are I want to own an automatic weapon great. If you want it silenced see Red Jacket and buy it. But I shouldnt have to pay some dumbass fee for ownership or be told no. Its my right to own a car and a bottle of booze. I promise you I could kill someone with that too. But there are no laws prohibiting me from having either. Just not at the same time.
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Old 12-20-2012, 10:06 AM   #170 (permalink)
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I thank those of you who responded to my question about weapon control.
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Old 12-20-2012, 10:27 AM   #171 (permalink)
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The point of the 2nd Amandment was to ensure the government stayed in check. If we have to battle the government ie. military we should have the same weapons.


Infringe is an interesting word, look up the definition.

W
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Old 12-20-2012, 11:05 AM   #172 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Waffen View Post
The point of the 2nd Amandment was to ensure the government stayed in check. If we have to battle the government ie. military we should have the same weapons.


Infringe is an interesting word, look up the definition.

W
So are you saying there should no absolutely no limits as to the kind of weaponry a private person can possess? Does that include nuclear weapons if a private company can manufacture it? What about chemical or biological weapons? Or is there a line you draw somewhere and where might that line be?
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Old 12-20-2012, 11:18 AM   #173 (permalink)
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Michael, Not to sway away from your direction on the thread but how about if you answer your own question. State your position and lets move from there instead of getting everyone elses position first. And I will leave you with my own question.

Do you feel like you have the right to defend yourself?
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Old 12-20-2012, 11:23 AM   #174 (permalink)
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Michael Psycle is reading this now saying WTF is this?
There is a line somewhere between a sling shot and a nuclear weapon. I don't know where that line should be. Waffen's idea that anyone should be able to have whatever the government has is scary. Hunting rifles, fine. RPG's, no. I don't know enough about particular weaponry to say where the line should be drawn but there is a line somewhere and I am curious as to what others who know a lot about weaponry think.
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Old 12-20-2012, 11:25 AM   #175 (permalink)
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Quote:
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I don't know where that line should be.
A common refrain from you.
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Old 12-20-2012, 11:26 AM   #176 (permalink)
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And do you have the right to defend yourself?
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Old 12-20-2012, 11:51 AM   #177 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Psycle View Post
So are you saying there should no absolutely no limits as to the kind of weaponry a private person can possess? Does that include nuclear weapons if a private company can manufacture it? What about chemical or biological weapons? Or is there a line you draw somewhere and where might that line be?
That "line" should not be regulated by the federal government, but should to be decided at the state level by the people, through their legislature. It is VERY unlikely that the people of any state would vote to allow the general population to own explosive military type devices or chemical weapons.
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Old 12-20-2012, 11:57 AM   #178 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Psycle View Post
I know very little about weaponry. But I've got a serious question for the second amendment enthusiasts around here. Where should the line be drawn? Does anyone believe in private ownership of rockets and grenade launchers? Other war weapons? If not, where is the line that represents what you think it is ok and not ok for private citizen to have?
Those lines are already drawn MP.
You cannot legally own a fully automatic firearm unless you have a special, albeit very expensive, permit from the ATF.
Same for grenades, rockets, etc.
Nonetheless, rest assured that criminal elements already own all of the above. I shudder to think about the global black market that would develop/explode overnight if there was a gun ban of some sort in the US.
And this is kind of our point. Those of us who do know something about weaponry also realize that all the laws in the world really only restrict weapon possession for folks that already are law abiding.
So the real issue to us is not guns themselves. Folks who really want them will get them somehow. Just like criminals get "illegal" guns now.

Proposed solutions?
1) Maybe a rational approach to background checks. Somehow would we be able to screen out folks who are actually at risk to commit horrific violence? Understand though, that, if someone really wants a gun or two or three, they can get one illegally.

2) NRA to raise the consciousness of it's members about preventing access to weapons by children and others who may use the weapon for evil.

3)Rekindle something like the Civilian Marksmanship Program. By exposing kids and young adults to firearms at an early age I can't help that the novelty and enamored feeling of holding/shooting a gun would be lessened for kids.

4)A cultural shift in our values about "cool". Pop culture has provided all these "cool" images to our kids. Often these images are simply not attainable. Nor should they be. Yet kids feel the need to emulate these images. And, as a parent, you really have to fight an uphill battle against all this. The explosion of "social media" has geometrically increased the difficulty of this job.

5)Rational, non-reactive approach to mental health. This is the toughest one as far as I'm concerned. I see kids that have been diagnosed with various disorders all the time. From my view, many of them are just angry. They're REALLY angry. And, often they have reason to be. The solutions to this problem are cultural though. And it doesn't help that getting good grades, not doing drugs or drinking alcohol, even working hard and improving your situation is often scoffed at in Popular Culture.

6) Acknowledgement that there is good and there is evil. We will never have a Utopia. Utopia is a fantasy. With the simple acknowledgement of evil we are then forced to ponder how we might protect ourselves, individually and collectively, from said evil. Clearly, government and law enforcement have a significant role, provided that the sources of evil AND the potential sources of evil are properly identified. But the individual also has a role. This is the whole idea behind Concealed Carry and "home defense". I would add that I think that there should be mandatory rigorous training for those who carry. Shooting a hundred rounds a year at the range isn't really sufficient in my view.

A short list for me at this point but a starting point. But first we have to agree that we have other big problems that result in these mass shootings. That they're not the result of inanimate objects called guns.
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Old 12-20-2012, 11:58 AM   #179 (permalink)
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Just a refresher....

Amendment II

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

It does not say without any regulations, so can restrictions with out violating our right be imposed?
Any constitutional lawyers in the house please jump in....
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Old 12-20-2012, 12:04 PM   #180 (permalink)
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DOC, I like the way you put that.
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