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Old 12-03-2012, 08:29 PM   #16 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Michael Psycle View Post
Atrocities advocated or committed in the name of God only show that the person advocating or committing those atrocities clearly didn't clearly understand the message of their own religion, and need to study more.
I see your point MP, and I know how much you like to enlighten others on what they don't seen to know enough about and some how you do, perhaps you can take a trip to the area and show them fine gentleman how wrong they are about their religion.
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Old 12-03-2012, 09:58 PM   #17 (permalink)
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Funny, when you put it in writing like that, you can start to see the similarities we share with them.
Similar to how obama feels about America.
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Old 12-03-2012, 10:03 PM   #18 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Tequila SG View Post
Seriously G, you actually have something in common with this animals, so you are saying that is ok to kill your child for disobedience.
Of all of the things you mentioned, how did you manage to zoom right in on that one?

the clothes you wear, the music you listen to, and the television you watch would all be censored
I watch people in this country make judgements about people based on clothing/style or music blaring from a car every day. I read on this forum every day about how biased (and censored) the MSM is in our country.

Behavior in public is legally restricted and controlled
No "holiday displays" allowed in public buildings. You can hardly speak in this country any more without offending someone and risking great scrutiny or being accused of slander or some sort of "hate crime".

And Sharia is the ideal social system for those that preach Radical Islam. Sharia is an Arabic term referring to a legal framework to regulate public and private aspects of life based upon specific Islamic teachings. Sharia is an intolerant system that threatens the Western ideals of “liberty and justice for all”
We may not be Islamic, but we definitely seem to be seeing a framework for regulation being put in place.

Sharia views non-Muslims as second class citizens, sanctions inequality between men and women, prescribes cruel and unusual punishments for crimes, and promotes a restrictive business environment that strangles the freedoms of capitalism
Here I would make the parallel between white collar, blue collar, and elite. The blue collar worker here is the second class citizen and is punished by having to pay for the non-workers while being greatly restricted on a pursuit of happiness. Our business environment may not be that bad yet, but I would say has been headed in that direction for a long time now.

Women in many Muslim countries are not considered equal to men
Do you believe it is really so different here? Just on this forum alone, I have read accusations that just about any woman you can think of with any major accomplishment(s) was only able to do so because she got some preference or break because she is a woman.

Beyond that, they are often subjected to unimaginable injustices
Of course that never happens here.

Radical Muslim societies ruled by Sharia law provide men with a clear advantage. According to Radical Islam, women are considered subservient, second-class citizens expected to conform to specific moral codes
How is this different from Catholicism?

Fathers have killed their own daughters for marrying outside of the Muslim faith. Such murders, or "honor killings" have even been recorded in growing numbers in the United States
This is of course the most extreme item you mentioned, and of course the one that you went straight to with your accusation (sensationalize much?). I've heard of plenty of Catholics not allowing marriage without conversion and excommunicating children of couples who get divorced.

Are these exactly the same? No they are not. I used the word "similarities" for a reason. How you view this all depends on how abstractly and objectively you are willing to look at things.

Sometimes we are just too focused on our differences to see how much alike we are.
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Old 12-03-2012, 10:11 PM   #19 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by <G Man> View Post
Funny, when you put it in writing like that, you can start to see the similarities we share with them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by <G Man> View Post
Of all of the things you mentioned, how did you manage to zoom right in on that one?

the clothes you wear, the music you listen to, and the television you watch would all be censored
I watch people in this country make judgements about people based on clothing/style or music blaring from a car every day. I read on this forum every day about how biased (and censored) the MSM is in our country.

Behavior in public is legally restricted and controlled
No "holiday displays" allowed in public buildings. You can hardly speak in this country any more without offending someone and risking great scrutiny or being accused of slander or some sort of "hate crime".

And Sharia is the ideal social system for those that preach Radical Islam. Sharia is an Arabic term referring to a legal framework to regulate public and private aspects of life based upon specific Islamic teachings. Sharia is an intolerant system that threatens the Western ideals of “liberty and justice for all”
We may not be Islamic, but we definitely seem to be seeing a framework for regulation being put in place.

Sharia views non-Muslims as second class citizens, sanctions inequality between men and women, prescribes cruel and unusual punishments for crimes, and promotes a restrictive business environment that strangles the freedoms of capitalism
Here I would make the parallel between white collar, blue collar, and elite. The blue collar worker here is the second class citizen and is punished by having to pay for the non-workers while being greatly restricted on a pursuit of happiness. Our business environment may not be that bad yet, but I would say has been headed in that direction for a long time now.

Women in many Muslim countries are not considered equal to men
Do you believe it is really so different here? Just on this forum alone, I have read accusations that just about any woman you can think of with any major accomplishment(s) was only able to do so because she got some preference or break because she is a woman.

Beyond that, they are often subjected to unimaginable injustices
Of course that never happens here.

Radical Muslim societies ruled by Sharia law provide men with a clear advantage. According to Radical Islam, women are considered subservient, second-class citizens expected to conform to specific moral codes
How is this different from Catholicism?

Fathers have killed their own daughters for marrying outside of the Muslim faith. Such murders, or "honor killings" have even been recorded in growing numbers in the United States
This is of course the most extreme item you mentioned, and of course the one that you went straight to with your accusation (sensationalize much?). I've heard of plenty of Catholics not allowing marriage without conversion and excommunicating children of couples who get divorced.

Are these exactly the same? No they are not. I used the word "similarities" for a reason. How you view this all depends on how abstractly and objectively you are willing to look at things.

Sometimes we are just too focused on our differences to see how much alike we are.
So are you a muslim?
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Old 12-03-2012, 10:19 PM   #20 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Waffen View Post
So are you a muslim?
No, I am not. Actually, I know next to nothing about Islam. I was only making a comparison to what I see around me in the USA and what Tequila posted about Sharia.

Like I said, there are many differences, but those differences do not negate the similarities.

The biggest difference I see is that in his description, it is the government/religious leaders who are responsible for the bad treatment of the citizens; here we mostly just do it to ourselves (each other) without always requiring government directive.
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Old 12-04-2012, 01:36 AM   #21 (permalink)
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Most non westerners understand there is a great difference between Christianity and Islam on one hand. But on the other hand, to non westerners both are the religions of the west which to their way of understanding it, comes from the same source, Adam and Eve through Abraham. Buddhism and Taoism, for instance, are very different religions. Yet to most westerners, they are similar eastern religions where the differences are few compared to the similarities. To the non westerners, the fights between Christianity and Islam is a family feud. They just don't see the differences the way we do.
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Old 12-04-2012, 05:09 AM   #22 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Waffen View Post
So are you a muslim?
have you ever seen a muslim riding a baby blue Harley???


sorry G.....................i know, i know..............it's Larkspur!!
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Old 12-04-2012, 05:17 AM   #23 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gman
Radical Muslim societies ruled by Sharia law provide men with a clear advantage. According to Radical Islam, women are considered subservient, second-class citizens expected to conform to specific moral codes

How is this different from Catholicism?
There is no equivilence between Catholics and Muslims in regard to Women. In fact, there is no equivilence in relation to their underlying theology.

Muslims believe in God as the master, they as the servant. Catholics believe in God as brother in the flesh (Christ Jesus), God the Father, Mary the Mother. It's a theological family, not a ruler who demands "submission" (the literal definition of the word "Islam.")

That underlying theme is carried into the individual's relationship with one another (the 10 commandants: ie: the 3 and the 7). Mankind are brothers and sisters, not master and servant. A woman is every bit the equal of man, however each has a role to play in the family of man, just as they have a role to play in the family of God. For example, the Priesthood, originally reserved for Levite men, is still reserved for men in Catholicism (which still practices the Jewish liturgy). The sisterhood, originally reserved for women is still reserved for women. Catholics reserve some of the original Kosher traditions which calls for a separation of roles in life as well as in the liturgy.

The roles of men and women in Catholicism are different but equal. Women in Islam are not equal to men. I am not judging them...that is their religion, unless or until it becomes illegal to convert as in many Sharia law nations, which to me is a violation of the natural rights of mankind to freedom of conscience (self-evident).
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Old 12-04-2012, 05:37 AM   #24 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by <G Man> View Post
No, I am not. Actually, I know next to nothing about Islam. I was only making a comparison to what I see around me in the USA and what Tequila posted about Sharia.

Like I said, there are many differences, but those differences do not negate the similarities.

The biggest difference I see is that in his description, it is the government/religious leaders who are responsible for the bad treatment of the citizens; here we mostly just do it to ourselves (each other) without always requiring government directive.
G-

No offense meant but this says it all. I have two issues, one personal and the other a warning.

First- you don't have a base of knowledge, but you have an opinion - so you put it out there and argue the point. An unqualified opinion isn't worth the time to hear it and to introduce one into a serious discussion is intellectually lazy. There's a lot of that in cyber land, but this is a serious issue.

Second - all Americans need to educate themselves about Islam, sharia, taqiya, and where this country's ignorance and misguided policies are leading us to. Do some searching and some reading. In a nutshell:

* Islam is an ideology of conquest and subjugation. It is based on greed and lust. It is not a religion.

* The ideology has three parts: a political/ governance element (caliphate model), a legal system (sharia), and a theology (Islam.) They are inextricably linked.

* Followers are directed to wage jihad against all non Muslims - and the vast majority do in some form: whether directly or by giving tacit support, approval and money.

* Islam's goal is to become the dominant ideology in the world.

* The ideology's three elements support one another and are constantly leveraged to win support, build political power, set legal precedence and proactively further the ideology's goals.

Finally, there is no moderate or radical Islam. There is no distinction, there is only Islam. The ideology calls for the death or subjugation of all non-followers and by any means. Its objectives and methods are very clear.

* There are no moderate Muslims. There are only active or inactive Muslims and their support for the ideology varies according to circumstance and opportunity.

The political inroads and gains this ideology has made in the U.S. is alarming and is following along a well-established path - see its progress in Belgium, France, Spain and England - and Dearborn, MI. Strongly recommend all who think they know about the ideology spend more time learning, paying particular attention to taqiya.
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Old 12-04-2012, 07:38 AM   #25 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Fred1369 View Post
Now, that is some kinda religion to allow killing, raping, and looting.
Who here wants to convert?
I already converted, from sub sonic HP to HV FMJ.
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Old 12-04-2012, 07:51 AM   #26 (permalink)
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Lefty is reading this now saying WTF is this? Lefty is reading this now saying WTF is this?
That Islam and Christianity have any significant likenesses is ridiculous. Their dramatic difference can best be illustrated by their approach to evangelism. Jesus describes what to do if rebuffed by those you are attempting to bring into his fold as follows in Mark 6:11 -

"And if any place will not welcome you or listen to you, leave that place and shake the dust off your feet as a testimony against them.”

In other words, move on to the next prospect.

Islam on the other hand, those who refuse to convert are to be put to death as infidels according to the Koran.

These so called "peaceful" Muslims are what would be called "backslid Muslims" by Southern Baptists. . . .
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Old 12-04-2012, 11:24 AM   #27 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DJW View Post
There is no equivilence between Catholics and Muslims in regard to Women. In fact, there is no equivilence in relation to their underlying theology.

Muslims believe in God as the master, they as the servant. Catholics believe in God as brother in the flesh (Christ Jesus), God the Father, Mary the Mother. It's a theological family, not a ruler who demands "submission" (the literal definition of the word "Islam.")

That underlying theme is carried into the individual's relationship with one another (the 10 commandants: ie: the 3 and the 7). Mankind are brothers and sisters, not master and servant. A woman is every bit the equal of man, however each has a role to play in the family of man, just as they have a role to play in the family of God. For example, the Priesthood, originally reserved for Levite men, is still reserved for men in Catholicism (which still practices the Jewish liturgy). The sisterhood, originally reserved for women is still reserved for women. Catholics reserve some of the original Kosher traditions which calls for a separation of roles in life as well as in the liturgy.

The roles of men and women in Catholicism are different but equal. Women in Islam are not equal to men. I am not judging them...that is their religion, unless or until it becomes illegal to convert as in many Sharia law nations, which to me is a violation of the natural rights of mankind to freedom of conscience (self-evident).
I was not trying to make an equivalence between Catholics and Muslims in any way. A similarity in some social behaviors should not be misconstrued as an equivalence of ideology.

I am not disputing any of what you say.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FXDRYDR View Post
G-

No offense meant but this says it all. I have two issues, one personal and the other a warning.

First- you don't have a base of knowledge, but you have an opinion - so you put it out there and argue the point. An unqualified opinion isn't worth the time to hear it and to introduce one into a serious discussion is intellectually lazy. There's a lot of that in cyber land, but this is a serious issue.
I take no offense.

I have no base of knowledge, but I can certainly read the post that was made and that was clearly what my opinion was about. I admit, my original statement was made somewhat tounge-in-cheek, but also with a bit of reality. The reality that similarities (I am stressing here the difference between similarities and equivalence) are often overlooked in favor of focusing on differences. An example I will use here is Republican v Democrat. The "parties" as a whole represent themselves as being entirely different when in fact there are many similarities to be found in those people who call themselves Republican and those who are Democrats.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FXDRYDR View Post
G-
Second - all Americans need to educate themselves about Islam, sharia, taqiya, and where this country's ignorance and misguided policies are leading us to. Do some searching and some reading. In a nutshell:

* Islam is an ideology of conquest and subjugation. It is based on greed and lust. It is not a religion.

* The ideology has three parts: a political/ governance element (caliphate model), a legal system (sharia), and a theology (Islam.) They are inextricably linked.

* Followers are directed to wage jihad against all non Muslims - and the vast majority do in some form: whether directly or by giving tacit support, approval and money.

* Islam's goal is to become the dominant ideology in the world.

* The ideology's three elements support one another and are constantly leveraged to win support, build political power, set legal precedence and proactively further the ideology's goals.
Nut shells work best for nuts. In my state of ignorance, it doesn't take very much research for me to determine that all people are not alike. No more than I would assume all Catholic Priests are pedophiles, or all Baptists want to burn all of the "wrong bibles" would I presume that all Muslims are as extreme or determined to take over the world as some propoganda would have us believe.

I also understand that there are different "flavors" of Muslim, some more demanding than others and some with slightly different beliefs than others.

I also understand that there are different levels of jihad (internal and external) and that there are different interpretations of what external jihad represents.

To say that ALL of any group of people are a certain way or share the same goals is the definition of a stereotype.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FXDRYDR View Post
G-
Finally, there is no moderate or radical Islam. There is no distinction, there is only Islam. The ideology calls for the death or subjugation of all non-followers and by any means. Its objectives and methods are very clear.

* There are no moderate Muslims. There are only active or inactive Muslims and their support for the ideology varies according to circumstance and opportunity.

The political inroads and gains this ideology has made in the U.S. is alarming and is following along a well-established path - see its progress in Belgium, France, Spain and England - and Dearborn, MI. Strongly recommend all who think they know about the ideology spend more time learning, paying particular attention to taqiya.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lefty View Post
That Islam and Christianity have any significant likenesses is ridiculous. Their dramatic difference can best be illustrated by their approach to evangelism. Jesus describes what to do if rebuffed by those you are attempting to bring into his fold as follows in Mark 6:11 -

"And if any place will not welcome you or listen to you, leave that place and shake the dust off your feet as a testimony against them.”

In other words, move on to the next prospect.

Islam on the other hand, those who refuse to convert are to be put to death as infidels according to the Koran.

These so called "peaceful" Muslims are what would be called "backslid Muslims" by Southern Baptists. . . .
"Invite (all) to the Way of thy Lord with wisdom and beautiful preaching; and argue with them in ways that are best and most gracious: for thy Lord knoweth best, who have strayed from His Path, and who receive guidance." (Qur'an 16:125)

"Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error: whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things." (Qur'an 2:256)

"If your Lord had so willed, He could have made mankind one people: but they will not cease to dispute." (Qur'an 11:118)

"And do thou be patient, for thy patience is but from Allah; nor grieve over them: and distress not thyself because of their plots. For Allah is with those who restrain themselves, and those who do good." (Qur'an 16:127-128)

"Tell those who believe, to forgive those who do not look forward to the Days of Allah: It is for Him to recompense (for good or ill) each people according to what they have earned." (Qur'an 45:14)


So I found these doing a minimal amount of research as you guys have suggested. Maybe I am mis-reading, but they do not seem consistent with some of the statements made here.

I will not argue that there are extreme Muslims in the world who would like nothing more than to destroy the USA and all other non-Muslim peoples. I do take it as a serious threat. I also recognize that not all people are alike. Muslims have Sunnis and Shia as Christians have Catholics and Protestants. Differences and similarities, that is all I'm saying.

If you want to pit ALL of the people in the largest group on the planet against you and hate them, you go right ahead. I think seeking out and understanding the ones who are a real threat might make for an easier battle to win.
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Old 12-04-2012, 12:03 PM   #28 (permalink)
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Gman you kind scare me. I'm not sure what side of the line you would protect. I make no assumptions just clear observation. It seems you have no back bone to help guide yourself. Pick a side and stand up for it for god sake! Stop this devil's advocate crap...... and that right there was an assumption.
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Old 12-04-2012, 12:46 PM   #29 (permalink)
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Gman you kind scare me. I'm not sure what side of the line you would protect. I make no assumptions just clear observation. It seems you have no back bone to help guide yourself. Pick a side and stand up for it for god sake! Stop this devil's advocate crap...... and that right there was an assumption.
The "Devil's advocate crap" is a good assumption.

Just because I am not full of hate for everyone that believes anything different from me does not mean I have "no back bone" as you say.

Read my entire post. I do take the threat seriously. I just don't believe that threat is posed by all 1.8 billion followers of Islam. I don't even believe that all of those people are followers by choice. 15-20% of those people are the real problem.

How are you "standing up for it" any more than I am? Do you go out and randomly shoot people that you perceive as Muslims and think you are making a difference? Do you think alienating 1.8 billion people when 30 million of them are a real threat is helping your cause? Would you fire storm your entire house just to eliminate a rodent that moved in?

What exactly is your "side"? What "side" do you think I am on?

How many more of your freedoms are you willing to give up in the name of "Homeland Security"?

I do not live to be at war. I was led to understand that this was a "serious discussion" involving research and education. I would like to continue that.
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Old 12-04-2012, 02:01 PM   #30 (permalink)
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Lefty is reading this now saying WTF is this? Lefty is reading this now saying WTF is this?
I know I won't ask you to research anything for me, G-Man, you proved your incompetence in that area with the Islam is love search. Below is the first item when I googled "koran quotes to kill infidels."

http://prophetofdoom.net/Islamic_Quotes.Islam

Your thoughts that we should seek to understand rather than, you used the word hate, I would use the words repel or deny, Islam is silly. There were those that said the same about Hitler in the '30s.

And, yes, yes, I know what is coming next, Christians were equally if not more brutal during the Crusades. As Danny Boy frequently regales us, Dems supported slavery and segregation in the past. Let's stay in the present.
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