Hello I must be going II

[DJW]

Years too late, Thousands of lives too many...but finally we're at least beginning to leave Iraq..

JUNE 30, 2009
BAGHDAD — Iraq officially took control of its fate Tuesday as the U.S. pulled its combat troops out of Baghdad and other cities and towns, handing over security responsibilities to Iraqi forces.

The withdrawal completed the Status of Forces agreement signed last November, and touched off celebrations in Baghdad and other cities.

"It is a day when Iraqis celebrate as they continue to move towards exercising their full sovereignty," U.S. Commanding General Ray Odierno told FOX News. "The Iraqi people should be very proud of the dedication, progress, and sacrifice of the Iraqi security forces and the government of Iraq."

Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki declared Tuesday to be "National Sovereignty Day," complete with a military parade to display to Iraqis — and a still stubborn insurgency — its ability to maintain order in a nation ravaged by six years of war.

An incredible job by the US Military against "impossible" odds..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jyDOAmJYFFA

May God Bless all the families of the Soldiers who never came home.

[Casey0211]

That is good news and our troops did indeed do a terrific job. I just hope the Iraqis have the good sense to take advantage of the opportunity they've been given and resist tumbling back into dictatorship or tribal warfare. I'm not real optimistic, but I wish them well.

[route66paul]

We got saddam a long time ago and toppled the goverment. the rest was a waste of money and manpower/lives. It really only helps the huge corporations that pay for the politicians' elections.

[beaujames7]

Originally Posted by DJW

May God Bless all the families of the Soldiers who never came home.

And May we as a nation Bless all the Soldiers who come home.

[xtheunknown]

I'm with Casey on this one. Good job troops, but I don't have high hopes for the Iraqi government not to fall into civil war.

[chuckfw]

Originally Posted by xtheunknown

I'm with Casey on this one. Good job troops, but I don't have high hopes for the Iraqi government not to fall into civil war.

It's time to quit. I read yesterday that now our troops have a new rule of engagement added, they have been told to not return fire coming from a house if they can run away instead. So, if you are on patrol and someone fires at you from a house, you need to retreat rather than fire back! Yep, I think that there's way too many liberal political rulings, too much a** kissing and tea drinking going on..... time to leave. Whatever happens when we leave is up to the people of that country... I hope we stay out of it.

[DJW]

Oh...don't get me wrong...we're not leaving...we're just handing over the police work in the Cities.

The US Embassy:

[Fred1369]

is that whole complex the green zone or just the American Embassy? Is there anyone else in the green zone besides Americans?

[HiAngle]

Originally Posted by chuckfw

It's time to quit. I read yesterday that now our troops have a new rule of engagement added, they have been told to not return fire coming from a house if they can run away instead. So, if you are on patrol and someone fires at you from a house, you need to retreat rather than fire back! Yep, I think that there's way too many liberal political rulings, too much a** kissing and tea drinking going on..... time to leave. Whatever happens when we leave is up to the people of that country... I hope we stay out of it.

Wrong area of operations. However, that new ROE, which you are not accurately portraying because we are allowed to shoot back, was installed by the new commander in Afghanistan, GEN McChrystal. Now I'm not sure if he's a liberal but he has extensive experience in Special Operations. But maybe you know more than he does.

But if you were referring to the SOFA agreement we operate under in Iraq, it was agreed to by the Bush administration.

[DJW]

Originally Posted by Fred1369

is that whole complex the green zone or just the American Embassy? Is there anyone else in the green zone besides Americans?

I believe you are looking at the US Embassy only. Ten times larger than our largest in any other country in the world costing about a billion dollars.

[chuckfw]

Originally Posted by HiAngle

Wrong area of operations. However, that new ROE, which you are not accurately portraying because we are allowed to shoot back, was installed by the new commander in Afghanistan, GEN McChrystal. Now I'm not sure if he's a liberal but he has extensive experience in Special Operations. But maybe you know more than he does. But if you were referring to the SOFA agreement we operate under in Iraq, it was agreed to by the Bush administration.

Yep, I reread the article and it is Gen. McChrystal who said it and he is talking about the troops in Afghanistan. Hell, I don't know if he is a liberal any more than you do, I never said he was. If you will relook at what I wrote, I said liberal political rulings.

The actual wording that I read is:
According to officials, Gen. McChrystal will order all international forces in Afghanistan to stop starting fights with militants near the homes of Afghan civilians. The troops will still be allowed to return fire if they are “in imminent danger,” but the preferred option will be to withdraw from the area.

Some of us always shoot back, we don't need permission nor do we need to "withdraw". If someone was to shoot at me, I believe I am in imminent danger.

[HiAngle]

Originally Posted by chuckfw

Yep, I reread the article and it is Gen. McChrystal who said it and he is talking about the troops in Afghanistan. Hell, I don't know if he is a liberal any more than you do, I never said he was. If you will relook at what I wrote, I said liberal political rulings.

The actual wording that I read is:
According to officials, Gen. McChrystal will order all international forces in Afghanistan to stop starting fights with militants near the homes of Afghan civilians. The troops will still be allowed to return fire if they are “in imminent danger,” but the preferred option will be to withdraw from the area.

Some of us always shoot back, we don't need permission nor do we need to "withdraw". If someone was to shoot at me, I believe I am in imminent danger.

ROE isn't a function of "liberal political ruling". The ROE change was directed by GEN McChrystal and approved by GEN Petraeus and Sec Gates. Sec Gates is a conservative and so is GEN Petraeus. In fact, many think (or hope) he runs for President in 2012. I'll even go out on a limb and say GEN McChrystal is a conservative.

I recommend you read the book "Tell Me How This Ends" http://www.amazon.com/Tell-Me-How-Th...6588321&sr=1-1

You'll read a quote from GEN Petraeus where he says, "You can't kill your way out of an insurgency".

I also recommend you read FM 3-24 and 3-24.1 -- the Army's Counterinsurgency FMs. Or maybe pick up a copy of any of the books written by Lester Grau. Particularly, "The Bear Went Over the Mountain" http://www.amazon.com/Bear-Went-Over...6588959&sr=1-1

..or "The Soviet-Afghan War: How a Superpower Fought and Lost. http://www.amazon.com/Soviet-Afghan-...6588850&sr=1-2

In any event, every time you're shot at in Afghanistan does not mean you're in "imminent danger". Taking some pop shots from a village isn't a reason to level the village. Sure, you may kill the guy who was shooting at you but you're also going to kill a bunch of people who had nothing to do with it. You lose the population, sending them right to the Taliban. The end result is a more powerful insurgency. You can also expect to be attacked more often, by way of IEDs. So in the end, you actually put more Soldiers at risk by having a very liberal (non political) ROE. Huge difference between high intensity conflict and an insurgency and how we fight each of them.

Edit--- here's a few paragraphs from a recent article regarding the operation in Helmand province (when I was last in Afghanistan, Helmand Province was the place you'd go to if you wanted to get into a fight).

Villagers in some districts have taken up arms against foreign troops to protect their homes or in anger after losing relatives in airstrikes, several community representatives interviewed said. Others have been moved to join the insurgents out of poverty or simply because the Taliban’s influence is so pervasive here.

On Thursday morning, 4,000 American Marines began a major offensive to try to take back the region from the strongest Taliban insurgency in the country. The Marines are part of a larger deployment of additional troops being ordered by the new American commander in Afghanistan, Gen. Stanley A. McChrystal, to concentrate not just on killing Taliban fighters but on protecting the population.

Yet Taliban control of the countryside is so extensive in provinces like Kandahar and Helmand that winning districts back will involve tough fighting and may ignite further tensions, residents and local officials warn. The government has no presence in 5 of Helmand’s 13 districts, and in several others, like Nawa, it holds only the district town, where troops and officials live virtually under siege.

The Taliban’s influence is so strong in rural areas that much of the local population has accepted their rule and is watching the United States troop buildup with trepidation. Villagers interviewed in late June said that they preferred to be left alone under Taliban rule and complained about artillery fire and airstrikes by foreign forces.

[Shockwave]

If we would have just given them the Hiroshima treatment this BS would have been over 6 years ago. Give any others that b!tch about it the same. Maybe, just maybe the US would regain the superpower status we once had. The rest of the world should be afraid of us but that has been a thing of the past for a long time.

...........now tell me why I'm wrong..........start.......NOW.....

[Fred1369]

how do you feel about the UN ?

[DJW]

Originally Posted by Shockwave

If we would have just given them the Hiroshima treatment this BS would have been over 6 years ago. Give any others that b!tch about it the same. Maybe, just maybe the US would regain the superpower status we once had. The rest of the world should be afraid of us but that has been a thing of the past for a long time.

...........now tell me why I'm wrong..........start.......NOW.....

You mean besides the genocide part in general?..