Shovel Rebuild

[joe79400]

I have a 78 1/2 Shovel and want to rebuild the engine. I have the manual and was thinking of doing the work my self, but I don't know of any machine shops in the North West Atlanta area. Does anyone have any recommendations on a machine shop. Or would I be better off pulling the engine and bringing it somewhere for the rebuild? Also, can anyone give me an idea of what a rebuild would cost?

[RidingJerry]

Good luck!!
Questions:
Are you just looking to rering and do a valve job or are you planning on
having it modified?
Since you have the manuals, you may want to do the tear down and reassembly yourself. The shovel is fairly simple.

[springer-]

Originally Posted by joe79400

I have a 78 1/2 Shovel and want to rebuild the engine. I have the manual and was thinking of doing the work my self, but I don't know of any machine shops in the North West Atlanta area. Does anyone have any recommendations on a machine shop. Or would I be better off pulling the engine and bringing it somewhere for the rebuild? Also, can anyone give me an idea of what a rebuild would cost?

Just a guess but a basic rebuild might be somewhere around $1500 +- depending on any unknown issues found after disassembly.

[newultraclassic]

Like Springer says, I think it could be done for around $1,500 if a person did the assembly and disassembly himself.

One caution: There is "rebuilt" with only cursory attention to things like cylinder and valve guide fit and then there is REBUILT, which to me means a complete overhaul with an eye towards reducing working clearance to some close approximation of the service manual.

As we know, Harleys can be rather forgiving when ignored and yet, they do begin to falter when clearances are left loose and not corrected.

In particular, the cylinder to piston fit with stock low compression pistons needs to be very tight when setup. Likewise, the valve guides need to be replaced and reamed properly along with the seats, making sure to replace the seats if they are cut too far in. New valves and springs are really mandatory in my opinion. I always toss the old ones when Ii'm doing a rebuld. They're usually pretty well shot.

As to the crank, you can get a complete set of rods, bearings and pin, all set up needing only to be installed. This could be done by an independent shop for a nominal fee. I doubt you could convince a Harley dealer to assist you on your shovelhead nowadays.

Lastly, the old Shovelhead, in my opinion needs to be left as close to stock as possible if it is to run for a long time. That's only my opinion as I tend to run stock machines. They really don't do all that well with extreme high compression.

Oh, lastly, a good modern electronic ignition would be an extra that would make you smile. Then you could use your old weight assembly for a neat paperweight like I do. Ha.



Good luck!

[L.Linkert]

As far as the crankshaft, I would not recomend using the Korean rod sets sold on the aftermarket.

[newultraclassic]

Originally Posted by L.Linkert

As far as the crankshaft, I would not recomend using the Korean rod sets sold on the aftermarket.

Who else makes them...S&S? I would really wonder if there are any that are not made in China or Korea, even if sold here under a brand name.

[L.Linkert]

It is much better to rebuild a stock rodset. I will go even furture and say that shops that install the cheap import rods are hacks.
S&S rods are on an average of 7oz heavier then stock rods, in my opinion S&S rods are not a good choice for stock flywheels.

[L.Linkert]

I can throw in some more info that may or may not be of interest.
The very last shovels used a crankshaft using Evo rods, Balanced for shovel pistons, with the slightly smaller wrist pin bushings ID for shovel pistons.
The earlier HD rods are made of mallable cast iron. The Evo rods are made of forged 4000 series chrome alloy steel.
Evo rod sets can be installed on stock shovel wheels if, the wrist pin bushings ar changed and the wheels are rebalanced. Evo rods are heavier but not as heavy as S&S rods.
All pre 2000 rods are rebuildable with upper and lower bushing kits from Jims and S&S.
If the lower bushings are not damaged, they can most of the time be resized using a Sunnen Hone and or the Kent Moore rod lapping tool. If only the lapping tool is available, it will take considerable time.
Once the lower rod bushings are cleaned up, the rod lowers can be fit using NEW bearings that are oversize or over size crank pin or combo of both.
One of the hallmarks of the earlier designs is the ability to totally rebuild them.

[newultraclassic]

Originally Posted by L.Linkert

I can throw in some more info that may or may not be of interest.
The very last shovels used a crankshaft using Evo rods, Balanced for shovel pistons, with the slightly smaller wrist pin bushings ID for shovel pistons.
The earlier HD rods are made of mallable cast iron. The Evo rods are made of forged 4000 series chrome alloy steel.
Evo rod sets can be installed on stock shovel wheels if, the wrist pin bushings ar changed and the wheels are rebalanced. Evo rods are heavier but not as heavy as S&S rods.
All pre 2000 rods are rebuildable with upper and lower bushing kits from Jims and S&S.
If the lower bushings are not damaged, they can most of the time be resized using a Sunnen Hone and or the Kent Moore rod lapping tool. If only the lapping tool is available, it will take considerable time.
Once the lower rod bushings are cleaned up, the rod lowers can be fit using NEW bearings that are oversize or over size crank pin or combo of both.
One of the hallmarks of the earlier designs is the ability to totally rebuild them.

Yes, surely what you say is true but I've discovered that many used rods are bent and need to be straightened. If you could use them over again and simply hone them out, you could save a lot of dough.

Honestly, I only know of one or two shops in my area that could do that sort of work anymore and they're not inexpensive. There's not a lot of money for specializing in that stuff anymore. Sort of sad, too.

One thing that can be done for Shovel owners would be to use a set of Evo wheels. I did that in mine. They were balanced for Shovelhead right from the factory and the small end fit right up to the Shovelhead low-compression cast pistons that I bought.

Even a stock set of Evo flywheels could be used given that the balance might be off a little but probably as close as a stock shovehead.

I think that time is running out for these old engines unless one has a complete machine shop.

.

[L.Linkert]

One of the problems with the 1999 and earlier crankshafts is the tapered end crankpin along with possible damage to the flywheels from improper disassembly, failure or other.
When the crankshaft is assembled, there is no way of checking if the crankpin is actually true even when the main shafts are true.
The way the rods are trued is with the crankshaft installed in the cases, then using the HD squaring plate with a flat bottom piston as shown in early manuals. This means that a rod that is trued on an automotive fixture may not run true with the cylinders when assembled with the crankshaft. Engines that are run with rods out of true have a very short life.
The explanation given above along with experience will prove that wrist pin bushing reaming fixtures are not effective, this is how, as the rods are trued, the crank is rotated for and aft, the reaming fixture is just used in one postion, not correcting for bend or twist.
These prehistoric engines can be successfully rebuilt using the basic HD tools as shown in the early manuals, it can be and has for decades been done without a full out machine shop. A basic lathe and shop press would be very handy. Even rod bearings can be fit without dial bore gages and micrometers using the plug method described in the early manuals.
Unfortunatly we are in a time of American inability to cope.

[newultraclassic]

Originally Posted by L.Linkert

One of the problems with the 1999 and earlier crankshafts is the tapered end crankpin along with possible damage to the flywheels from improper disassembly, failure or other.
When the crankshaft is assembled, there is no way of checking if the crankpin is actually true even when the main shafts are true.
The way the rods are trued is with the crankshaft installed in the cases, then using the HD squaring plate with a flat bottom piston as shown in early manuals. This means that a rod that is trued on an automotive fixture may not run true with the cylinders when assembled with the crankshaft. Engines that are run with rods out of true have a very short life.
The explanation given above along with experience will prove that wrist pin bushing reaming fixtures are not effective, this is how, as the rods are trued, the crank is rotated for and aft, the reaming fixture is just used in one postion, not correcting for bend or twist.
These prehistoric engines can be successfully rebuilt using the basic HD tools as shown in the early manuals, it can be and has for decades been done without a full out machine shop. A basic lathe and shop press would be very handy. Even rod bearings can be fit without dial bore gages and micrometers using the plug method described in the early manuals.
Unfortunatly we are in a time of American inability to cope.

Yep, amost no one knows how to do all of this stuff anymore. It's all having to do with the economy. New bikes are in, old bikes are out. Thus, there's few left to work on them anymore.

[L.Linkert]

Sheesh! Maybe the old stuff will make a comeback like vacuum tube electronics,such as high end Nagra
Pretty much the same engine from 1936 to 1999 and there are thounds of them.
Somewhere I read that HD produced over 70000 in 99. They are trying to get close to 400000 on the latest models.
And thus the problem, this current mass production is driving down the price of older bikes "even last years Twincam."
A local guy picked up a real clean mid 90s Fatboy for $6500 another got an 89 FXR $4200.
bad local economy, many jobs lost last couple of years.

[newultraclassic]

Originally Posted by L.Linkert

Sheesh! Maybe the old stuff will make a comeback like vacuum tube electronics,such as high end Nagra
Pretty much the same engine from 1936 to 1999 and there are thounds of them.
Somewhere I read that HD produced over 70000 in 99. They are trying to get close to 400000 on the latest models.
And thus the problem, this current mass production is driving down the price of older bikes "even last years Twincam."
A local guy picked up a real clean mid 90s Fatboy for $6500 another got an 89 FXR $4200.
bad local economy, many jobs lost last couple of years.

Yes, prices are way down in Sacramento on used motorcycles. There are lots and lots of them for sale and they are not moving too well......maybe this will change when the weather warms up. It's certainly a lot different from ten years ago when there were waiting lists two years long and $500 deposits.

Bottom line is that if someone has a really nice vintage bike and wants to spend the money to rebuild and restore it properly, you can always find the parts and labor to get it done. It will be neither fast nor cheap in this day and age.

[FL84FXWG]

Does your bike need just a top end or top and bottom.

How did you come to this conclusion? Compression test, leakdown test,

smoking, noises or what?

I would think in an area as large as Atlanta there would be a reputable

shop.

If not give Truett & Osborn in Wichita Kansas a try.

http://www.truettandosborn.com/

You can ship them as much or as little of your engine as you want

and get a good job by a reputable shop. I had my top end done by them

last year. Shipped it from Florida.