smoking shovel

[joeldavid_m]

Ok so I've posted about the puking tranny and the rocker noise now I'm not sure about either. I got an 81 fxs at xmas time, it's my first bike and although I'm pretty mechanically inclined this bike stuff is all new to me. I posted a while ago about tapping that was happening, after cleaning the tappet screen it got better but the engine was still a bit noisy. I thought it's a shovel they make some noisy but was kind of unsure. Then on a couple occasions after riding hard there is fluid all over the back of the bike that after a while I'm led to belive is tranny fluid. Meanwhile I start hearing a hissing noise. And now on Saturday it started running really labored and smoking at lights. I got it home and checked the oil, it was low. I crossed my fingers and thought maybe it was just a little hot because it was low so on sunday I changed oil and checked the rest of the fluids and did a test drive and all went well. Monday I went for little longer ride and I started seeing the smoke again a little bit after 10 miles or so. The bike sounded fine other than the rocker noise and seemed to be running ok. I know I saw smoke from the front pipe not sure about the back. Any help would be apreciated.

Joel

[newultraclassic]

Originally Posted by joeldavid_m

Ok so I've posted about the puking tranny and the rocker noise now I'm not sure about either. I got an 81 fxs at xmas time, it's my first bike and although I'm pretty mechanically inclined this bike stuff is all new to me. I posted a while ago about tapping that was happening, after cleaning the tappet screen it got better but the engine was still a bit noisy. I thought it's a shovel they make some noisy but was kind of unsure. Then on a couple occasions after riding hard there is fluid all over the back of the bike that after a while I'm led to belive is tranny fluid. Meanwhile I start hearing a hissing noise. And now on Saturday it started running really labored and smoking at lights. I got it home and checked the oil, it was low. I crossed my fingers and thought maybe it was just a little hot because it was low so on sunday I changed oil and checked the rest of the fluids and did a test drive and all went well. Monday I went for little longer ride and I started seeing the smoke again a little bit after 10 miles or so. The bike sounded fine other than the rocker noise and seemed to be running ok. I know I saw smoke from the front pipe not sure about the back. Any help would be apreciated.

Joel

Hi, Sorry to give you the sad news but you are in line to spend some $$$ to make your bike right. I say this because I've been there and done that. In 1992 I got a 1982 FXS for $5,000. I still have it but now, I've got about $7,000 more invested (invested?) in it.

Shovelheads tend to leak anyway so that's just something that you will have to start working on. Generally it's the primary, the pushrod covers and the transmission shaft main drive seals and so forth.

The engine smoking, however, is a different issue. People (not me) will often take an engine apart, take a look at things like cylinder bores and valve guide clearances and say, "well, that should be OK' or, "It'll probably run OK when I'm done putting it back together." This is generally done without measuring anything, just guessing.

I'm not trying to give you a lecture here, since you're not respoinsible for any of the wear. It's just that the Shovelhead is like any other HD, only older. It needs to have the clearances inside the engine brought back to the specifications shown in the service manual. Anything less will cause smoking, ticking and leaking.

What I did with mine was to take the cylinder heads and clyinders to the local HD shop and get the cylinders bored tight with new HD cast low-compression pistons. Then I also had the dealer replace the seats and guides, install new valves, seals and springs to factory specs. At the same time, that the cylinders are off, you could look at the condition of the big end connecting rod bearing. That might need some attention, too. Miost of them do after 25 years or so.

Note that this work was done by a Harley dealer a few years back when they were still working on Shovelheads. Now all they want to do is sell new bikes. They will hardly work on an Evolution bike anymore, either.

The difference in my case was like night and day. It's been running perfectly now for close to ten years. Nice and quiet with few leaks to speak of.

So, my recommendation would be to pick up the factory manual and begin assessing the condition of your bike in relation to the book. You could also find a friendly independent shop that could assist you since it's not all about money, but sometimes just a little extra knowledge will do the trick at a fraction of the cost of the dealer. As I said, the HD dealers won't work on Shovelheads anymore anyway so it's either find an indy shop or you're on your own.

When people tell me that Shovelheads are noisy, run hot and leak, I just laugh to myself. They're like any other mechanical system. They need to be maintained and kept in good condition and they will run as well as any other bike. Mine has close to 100,000 miles on it and I would ride it anywhere that my backside would permit.

Once you get it in shape, you will want to keep it since it's really a great motorcycle. I have a 2004 Ultra also, but the Shovelhead would be the one that I would keep if a push came to a shove. I just like the way it looks, and sounds, too.

I'm only trying to encourage you here, not trying to be a smart-a**.

Good luck.

[joeldavid_m]

Thanks for the response ultra I've read your advice to others here and have allways thought it was sound. I'd love to see a pic of what you've done to your fxs. And yeah I plan on sinking some cash into the bike, although it really seemed to run well except for that rocker noise.

As far as leaks go I know that the bigest one is the trans main seal. It's leaking some at the front rocker cover gasket and just a bit at two of the rocker shaft ends and a tiny bit at the cam cover.

The engine had 26380 on it 500 of which were after being "rebuilt". Iwould guess that since I got it I've put 3500 on it and the smoke just started in the last 25 miles. I met the guy who "built" the motor and don't know what to think of him and I'm not real clear on what all he did. I have an old friend who used to wrench on bikes here in town that has probably put 200000 on his 73 that I'm trying to get ahold of to help me out with the bike.

I did pick up a factory manual and have started reading. I need to get a compression tester before going much further. And the nerve to start taking things apart, all I really want to do is ride the thing: ).

I can't imagine ever getting rid of this bike, it's my first and when I was falling in love with Harleys shovelheads were THE bikes. I can see a bagger coming home some day though.

Joel

[LittleBear]

I see you are in the Pheonix area. My brother does a lot of business with Ramjet Racing out on Cave Creek road.
http://www.ramjetracing.com/contactus.html
They work on Shovels and can get most parts for them also. When he wants H-D genuine parts, he has had good luck with Buddy Stubb.
Now I have no idea of the quality of Ramjet's work because my brother does all his own wrenching on his 79 Shovel, but he gives them a thumbs up for parts and customer service.

[ToddM]

Your first bike is a Harley?? Congratulations! Have you been riding anything else before this one?? It's not a very wise idea, IMHO, to start riding on a Harley. Everyone should start on something smaller. It's just common sense..... Do pilots learn to fly in a 747? No. I was an instructor in Texas, and have seen many people start on a bigger machine than they should have. It makes it very hard to learn when you start big. It can get expensive, too. We used to do the training on enduros. They were easy to handle and pick up if dropped (which WILL happen), and are made to be dropped, so the parts don't break as easily. But, if you feel froggy, then jump.

Sounds like you just need a top end job and some new seals elsewhere on the bike. A quick compression test will verify that. Since you bought a shovel, I take it you are a mechanic. If not, then expect to be spending a lot of money paying someone else to keep it running properly. That's just the nature of the beast.

I see you already picked up a factory service manual. That's a good start! Don't waste money on a Clymer, Haynes, or other such crap. All they are good for is toilet paper. A parts catalog will also be needed if you want to simplify ordering parts and assembling the engine.

If you can fix a lawnmower, you can do a top end job. You'll just have to bring some of the parts to a machine shop to have them reworked, if necessary. While you are at it, take the tranny apart, inspect and adjust (shim) everything as per the manual, and install new seals. That's another easy job if you follow the book.

Order a complete gasket set from J&P Cycle or some other aftermarket store. Don't waste money going to a dealership. They will just sell you overpriced "Genuine", made in China, H-D parts. You can get everything you need aftermarket that made in the USA, and the quality will be higher and the cost lower.

Fact: Shovelheads are NOISY. Some of the noises you can reduce, but it will ALWAYS make some noise. That's just the way they are. Every bike makes slightly different sounds (I tend to consider them as having different personalities) After a while, you will get used to the normal sounds it makes and will be able to tell right away when something is amiss. If you want a quiet bike, sell it and buy a *** machine or BMW.

I have owned a few shovels and old Sportsters and I would pull the top end apart every winter for inspection. It's usually just a weekend job if I take my time, and allows me to clean out the carbon. Parts are cheap, too. Doing that, I've never had trouble with the bikes during the rest of the year.

Good luck! You have just started on the adventure of a lifetime!

[newultraclassic]

As ToddM says, the Shovelhead engine is indeeed normally somewhat noisy. Sometimes, there are excess noises that arise. When you investigate, be certain to look for excessive side clearance on rocker arms. This can be set with sized washers that are available through catalog sources like J&P or Custm Chrome, only two of several good sources for parts for your bike.

If it has constant clicking on one or more hydraulic lifters, this can be a sign of a badly worn valve guide on that valve. Valve seals as well are critical. Properly installed, with a perfect clearance on a new and properly reamed valve and valve guide, you won't have any smoke from them at all. Anything less and the engine will generally smoke on startup and heavy acceleration.

Pistons, as well, benefit from a tight setup. With stock low compression cast pistons, they can be set close to a little more than a thousandth prior to a slow breakin. I suggest low compression on these engines due to the hemispherical combustion chamber which can be troublesome with excessive compression - like 9:1 or more. My bike is set with 7.5:1 pistons and it simply won't ping under any circumstances that I have encountered, even on cheap 87 octane gas with part ethanol. Personally, I don't know about you, but with $3.00 87 octane gas staring us in the eye this summer and likely in the future, high compression is not something I'm looking for. Originally, almost all of these later engines were low compression due to the changeover to unleaded which was occurring around 1975 on.

It pays to be critical with these engines and make certain that clearances are as required. Once you get it to that point, you will see and hear the difference.

Good luck.

[joeldavid_m]

LittleBear I know of Ramjet and have been in their store they stock alot of parts. I've got a small indy shop about a mile and a half from me that works on shovels too that I'm looking into.

ToddM Rode dirt bikes a little as a teen and I took an MSF course on a smaller bike (very glad I did that!). I also spent 9 years racing road bikes (as in bicycles) I know it's not the same but I rode several hundred miles a week in trafic on two wheels. After nearly 4000 miles on the Harley I would have to say that I would be over a smaller bike by now, shoot at 6'3" 200# sometimes the fxs feels small. The top end has only 4000 miles on it so I wouldn't think that it needs to be redone but I guess thats what I'll be checking out. As for my mechanic skills they are fair to good and as you state these are pretty simple machines. I figure between the manual and you guys I should be able to get the job done. I know that shovelhead make noise and I wouldn't change that. Thats why I wasn't sure about the amount of noise it was making but a more experianced mechanic gave it a listen and said it's making too much.

NUC The manual makes me think valve guide too. I'm going to pick up a compression tester and that should start to clear things up. No $h!t on the petrol prices but its way better that putting gas in my THIRSTY Jeep.

[L.Linkert]

I work on these for a living for the past 32yrs. here is what I do when encountering such a bike.
First, compression check.
If the bike has good compression, then the oil burning problem is related to oil return.
Restrictive oil filter
Restricted breather hose "useless filter attached perhaps"
Too much oil in the tank "happens often" here is how, the bike sits for a period of time, the oil seeps past the pump check ball and swamps the crankcases, the owner sees that the tank is low and tops it up, but there is a bunch of oil in the crankcase,when started oil may blow out the breather hose, cause smoke and make gurgling and hissing noises.
The last is, the return side of the oil pump is damaged. This occurs rapidly in shovels because they circulate the nasty oil from the primary chain drive. that should be changed as per Evo style sealed off from engine.

[ToddM]

Originally Posted by L.Linkert

I work on these for a living for the past 32yrs. here is what I do when encountering such a bike.
First, compression check.
If the bike has good compression, then the oil burning problem is related to oil return.

Don't forget about bad valve seals. They can cause a lot of oil loss. Maybe one got damaged when the heads were assembled. It's happened to me before. Just a suggestion.....

[ToddM]

Joel, Good to hear you have dirt bike experience. If you can ride them, you can ride just about anything! The MSF course is a must, IMO. That course WILL save lives!

As newultra said, the shovels run best at low compression ratios. My '76 XLCH (also a "hemi") had 12.5:1 Wiesco pistons in it and I had to run a mix of premium and 100 octane AVGAS for it to run right.

[ROY YOUNG]

joeldavid m,

I've had my '78 FLH since '87 and have put close to 80,000 miles on it. I now have a '96 Ultra Classic so it doesn't get ridden as near as much as it used to. Still all said and done though, like newultra, I would never get rid of it. Also quoting newultra, when I bought this '78, even though I had a couple of Shovels years back, I thought I'd never get on top of it. Once I did, I would also ride mine anywhere. You will get frustrated at times with this thing, but other times when you pull in somewhere and several come over to take a look at your "Shovel" like their long lost dog just walked up, you won't quit grinning. I don't post here much but I get in here almost everyday. There are little tips and tricks that all of us have come to find whether it's from our own personal experience or from talking to others that will make it easier for you to to get your bike in top shape sooner hopefully without the frustration we have all felt one time or another.

Welcome!

[newultraclassic]

I'm glad to hear that I'm not the only one that loves their old Shovelhead. I still get a little chill when I ride it. When I do, I'm 15 years old again on my '46 Knucklehead.

It is a bike that harks back to the early days. The engine is a prototype for sheer, raw mechanical beauty. It looks like two cylinders out of a Wright Cyclone aircraft engine. It's sure been fun to own.

Right now, mine is sitting on the Handy air lift waiting to get its oil changed and for a break in the weather. It rained 20 days in March and, up to now, about 12 days out of April. Need to take a ride on Mr. Shovelhead to feel good again. Got to hear that sound and know that everything's going to be OK.

Regards.

NUC

[L.Linkert]

Shovels are making a come back in a big way. Its appears that many want to get to the roots of the days of yesteryear.

[MilesToGo]

Originally Posted by L.Linkert

Shovels are making a come back in a big way. Its appears that many want to get to the roots of the days of yesteryear.

Yep, seeing more and more new (S&S) shovelheads on the road. They may be shiney and new but still don't look as nice [to me] as my old original.

[Shovel Head Ted]

Congradulations on your "new" shovel. a lot of good advice here on this site. One thing I would say is buy some Loctite, red, blue and use it religiously. A well maintained shovel can be ridden anywere with no troubles at all . They do require more attention to periodic maintanence than the newer bikes. Once you get used to it these things become like second nature and take very little time to do. I would do a compression check to see how the cyliders are . If your crankcase vent is returned to the carb you can get smoke from the excess oil .In the early 80s HD switched to shorter valve guides that don't hold up as well as the older style . I have also observed that these bikes love to be ridden, not just taken out once in a while. The more often you ride them the better they seem to run IMO.