Rattle in my Shovelhead

[Dan_Lockwood]

Okay guys, one more got to ask question.

I've got about 600 miles on the '76 FLH since I got it back on the road and other than a few little minor oil drips, it's been great, BUT..........

I've developed a noise that sounds like spark knock only more metalic and louder. It sounds like someone is hammering the motor with a 1/2" wrench. I does it cold or hot and at about 50 mph in high gear in either load or coast situations.

We rode yesterday and that's when I started to hear it. I thought last year when I had the fairing on that I could hear a rattle, but it would come and go while holding steady on the throttle.

Before I rode today I thought I'd give the lifters a bit of a check to make sure they're still adjusted okay. They are solid lifters and according to the previous owner they should only have about 5K miles on them. They were all adjusted as I had adjusted them 600 miles ago. When I did the original valve adjustment after putting the motor back in I had to use an open end wrench on the lifter and then unlock the jam nut and then turn the adjuster to the proper adjustment. The base twin flats that the jam nut locks to did not turn or seem like they would but today when I adjusted one of them the base with the internal threads could rotate inside the lifter with just a bit of pressure on the wrench. I don't think it should turn like that. Not being familiar at all with this motor and not being able to find this in the manual, my four pushrods are all different lengths. When I put them back in I chose the one that fit the best for each lifter that allowed the about the same amount of threads in the adjusters exposed. It also seem that the there are an awfull lot of threads out of the adjusts, all of them about the same.

I rode it about 30 miles this afternoon it will do it in all gears with the same rpm and conditions. It really doesn't seem to affect power or performance in any way. When I got home I let it idle while I got out my motor stethoscope to see if I could pin point the origin of the noise. The rocker area on the exhaust front head and on the exhaust rear head both seemed to rattle a bit. I also found out that my lifters are hitting on the inside of the pushrod tubes and making some noise there too. I rotated the lower tubes a bit and I could get rid of the knocking feeling in my fingers but the stethoscope still told me they were noisy.

The funny thing is that the motor seems to be really quite at idle with no unusual noises. I can free rev the motor and only once in awhile can I make the rattle noise I hear riding the bike. I'm not sure if I'm getting paranoid but it seems like I picked up a slight motor vibration at a bit lower rpm once or twice yesterday.

If this were a small block Chevy I'd say it sounds like I have a collapsed lifter or a pulle rocker stud. That's the type of rattle this thing is making.

I know, solids aren't the best for this slow speed demon I'm riding, but I can't think that they would be good for awhile and then rattle for a bit. I would think that if it's the solids they would be noisy all the time. I'm really thinking hard about switching over to the hydraulics now anyway. It has an Andrews #2 cam and the motor makes good power for what it is.

Sorry for the length of this but I'm just trying to give as much information as I can.

When I had the rocker boxes off the motor during my frame redo, I felt the rockers and they felt good and the original owner said that they had been gone through when they redid the pistons and valve work about 5K miles ago.

If you have questions that I need to answer, ask away. I've had great response here in the past from you guys and I know lots of Shovelhead guys hang here.

Thanks in advance.

Later dudes.....

Dan
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[tequacha]

people used to shim the rockers, cause lots of sideplay can cause some of the rattles you are describing

[newultraclassic]

Originally Posted by tequacha

people used to shim the rockers, cause lots of sideplay can cause some of the rattles you are describing

Yeah, the rockers could have excessive sideplay as Mr. T. says. They should be .004 to .012. Shims used to be available from Harley but now you'll probably have to order them from CCI or J&P or some-such vendor. If they are more than .025, you will certainly hear them and they will be louder at speed.

If this is not the case, then I would take a look at the roller tappets to see if one has failed. (Note that I no longer talk about the benefits of hydraulics versus solids in a Shovelhead...... )

Last case would be the connecting rods or a wrist pin or pins too loose.

Good luck.

[Dan_Lockwood]

Originally Posted by newultraclassic

Yeah, the rockers could have excessive sideplay as Mr. T. says. They should be .004 to .012. Shims used to be available from Harley but now you'll probably have to order them from CCI or J&P or some-such vendor. If they are more than .025, you will certainly hear them and they will be louder at speed.

If this is not the case, then I would take a look at the roller tappets to see if one has failed. (Note that I no longer talk about the benefits of hydraulics versus solids in a Shovelhead...... )

Last case would be the connecting rods or a wrist pin or pins too loose.

Good luck.

NUC, thanks for the reply, as well as Mr. T.

I've been around motor all my life and sometimes noises like this can drive you crazy.

From what I understand the rods are needle rollers and not bushing. I would think that if I were have a bad rod bearing assembly I'd be able to determine that from idle or revving it slightly. Also I would think that the noise wouldn't come and go as this does, although lately it's more coming than going.

I think I mentioned in the post that the push rod tubes are getting hit by the nuts etc on the solid lifters. Is this something that has always been a problem with tight clearance for stock push rods and tubes?

It's just so hard to figure out where the noise is coming from while you're riding it. I can't get it loud enough while just revving it to duplicate the noise. I think maybe a dyno will be the only way to tell, but that's a couple hundred dollars just to set it up on one.

Just as a side note, I've got a vibration question. I've changed the gearing from the stock to a 48 tooth on the rear and still running the stock 24 tooth motor sprocket. I've got a new chain and a M-6 spring tensioner on the primary. When I hit 60 mph it's still somewhat smooth but when I hit 65 mph on up the floorboards just about vibrate my feet numb. If I were to have the rotating mass balanced this next winter will that help out some on this type of problem? I still find that the ole FLH is very comfortable at a speed about 55 mph to 60 mph. In my old days with my old Goldwing we'd cruise at 75 mph to 85 mph and not think anything of it. But hey, my wife and I are not in any hurry and we only sport ride on weekends so not worry about being too slow.

Well guys, any other things you can think of for me to check out? I'm going to have to get used to new types of noises that this thing can make.

On another side note, with the NEW lower speed vibration I get once in awhile, what would be taking place if one of the crank pins were to be bad? Would the motor just stop or would a rod end up ventilating my crankcase?

I know, I'm asking some pretty ignorant questions now and rambling, so enough for now.

Thanks again guys for all the help and if anything pops into your minds, let me know so I can get deeper into this.

Dan

[springer-]

Originally Posted by newultraclassic

(Note that I no longer talk about the benefits of hydraulics versus solids in a Shovelhead...... )

Awwww come on !! Lets go. I run Hydraulics in my shovelhead and I run an Andrews "C" grind cam with .525" lift.

[tequacha]

I "USED" to ride old shovels and such on vitamin A, talk about all kinds of strange noises!!! (watch out for poisonous lunar bats)

[newultraclassic]

Originally Posted by springer-

Awwww come on !! Lets go. I run Hydraulics in my shovelhead and I run an Andrews "C" grind cam with .525" lift.

Sounds good to me. I love hydraulic lifters and I notice I don't hear any of the TC88 engine buiilders on this forum arguing the benefits of sold lifters.

It's just that any time I tell people what I really think of soild lifters in Shovelheads, I get batted in the head. LOL

..

[tequacha]

Originally Posted by newultraclassic

Yeah, the rockers could have excessive sideplay as Mr. T. says. They should be .004 to .012. Shims used to be available from Harley but now you'll probably have to order them from CCI or J&P or some-such vendor. If they are more than .025, you will certainly hear them and they will be louder at speed.

If this is not the case, then I would take a look at the roller tappets to see if one has failed. (Note that I no longer talk about the benefits of hydraulics versus solids in a Shovelhead...... )

Last case would be the connecting rods or a wrist pin or pins too loose.

Good luck.

Its hard to tell what a noise could be when its described other than listening to it. I never had any luck with those shims, put them in and 6 months later they would be gone. We used to remachine a new spacer to compensate for end play. I do believe setting solid lifters is a lost art.

[newultraclassic]

Originally Posted by Dan_Lockwood

NUC, thanks for the reply, as well as Mr. T.

I've been around motor all my life and sometimes noises like this can drive you crazy.

From what I understand the rods are needle rollers and not bushing. I would think that if I were have a bad rod bearing assembly I'd be able to determine that from idle or revving it slightly. Also I would think that the noise wouldn't come and go as this does, although lately it's more coming than going.

I think I mentioned in the post that the push rod tubes are getting hit by the nuts etc on the solid lifters. Is this something that has always been a problem with tight clearance for stock push rods and tubes?

It's just so hard to figure out where the noise is coming from while you're riding it. I can't get it loud enough while just revving it to duplicate the noise. I think maybe a dyno will be the only way to tell, but that's a couple hundred dollars just to set it up on one.

Just as a side note, I've got a vibration question. I've changed the gearing from the stock to a 48 tooth on the rear and still running the stock 24 tooth motor sprocket. I've got a new chain and a M-6 spring tensioner on the primary. When I hit 60 mph it's still somewhat smooth but when I hit 65 mph on up the floorboards just about vibrate my feet numb. If I were to have the rotating mass balanced this next winter will that help out some on this type of problem? I still find that the ole FLH is very comfortable at a speed about 55 mph to 60 mph. In my old days with my old Goldwing we'd cruise at 75 mph to 85 mph and not think anything of it. But hey, my wife and I are not in any hurry and we only sport ride on weekends so not worry about being too slow.

Well guys, any other things you can think of for me to check out? I'm going to have to get used to new types of noises that this thing can make.

On another side note, with the NEW lower speed vibration I get once in awhile, what would be taking place if one of the crank pins were to be bad? Would the motor just stop or would a rod end up ventilating my crankcase?

I know, I'm asking some pretty ignorant questions now and rambling, so enough for now.

Thanks again guys for all the help and if anything pops into your minds, let me know so I can get deeper into this.

Dan

The rollers in your lower end are around 3/16" and they are quite strong. When they start to go out, the engine may go one of two ways, it will either develop a continual dull knock or it will start sounding ike a knife sharpener. This is usualy accompanied by the onset of terrific vibration. If let go, that's when you have to start worrying about a connecting rod escaping the engine.

There could be numerouus reasons for vibration in your bike. Balance would be one of them. Things can get out of balance when pistons get changed. A good balance job would go a long way towards helping out the vibration.

Another thing is to check the motor mount bolts and the upper mount. They can get loose and cause vibratons.

While you are at it, there could be a crack in the frame. This is doubtful but I've seen it happen.

Good luck on this.

[tequacha]

Originally Posted by Dan_Lockwood

NUC, thanks for the reply, as well as Mr. T.

I've been around motor all my life and sometimes noises like this can drive you crazy.

From what I understand the rods are needle rollers and not bushing. I would think that if I were have a bad rod bearing assembly I'd be able to determine that from idle or revving it slightly. Also I would think that the noise wouldn't come and go as this does, although lately it's more coming than going.

I think I mentioned in the post that the push rod tubes are getting hit by the nuts etc on the solid lifters. Is this something that has always been a problem with tight clearance for stock push rods and tubes?

It's just so hard to figure out where the noise is coming from while you're riding it. I can't get it loud enough while just revving it to duplicate the noise. I think maybe a dyno will be the only way to tell, but that's a couple hundred dollars just to set it up on one.

Just as a side note, I've got a vibration question. I've changed the gearing from the stock to a 48 tooth on the rear and still running the stock 24 tooth motor sprocket. I've got a new chain and a M-6 spring tensioner on the primary. When I hit 60 mph it's still somewhat smooth but when I hit 65 mph on up the floorboards just about vibrate my feet numb. If I were to have the rotating mass balanced this next winter will that help out some on this type of problem? I still find that the ole FLH is very comfortable at a speed about 55 mph to 60 mph. In my old days with my old Goldwing we'd cruise at 75 mph to 85 mph and not think anything of it. But hey, my wife and I are not in any hurry and we only sport ride on weekends so not worry about being too slow.

Well guys, any other things you can think of for me to check out? I'm going to have to get used to new types of noises that this thing can make.

On another side note, with the NEW lower speed vibration I get once in awhile, what would be taking place if one of the crank pins were to be bad? Would the motor just stop or would a rod end up ventilating my crankcase?

I know, I'm asking some pretty ignorant questions now and rambling, so enough for now.

Thanks again guys for all the help and if anything pops into your minds, let me know so I can get deeper into this.

Dan

you only have one crank pin, if the rods let loose you will here one large noise and then it will get real quiet. Gearing up the rear sprocket can cause the drive chain to drag on the front mount for the drive chain

[Dan_Lockwood]

Originally Posted by tequacha

you only have one crank pin, if the rods let loose you will here one large noise and then it will get real quiet. Gearing up the rear sprocket can cause the drive chain to drag on the front mount for the drive chain

I remember many years ago when I was just a kid, mid to late teens, my parents had a marina and I did all the mechincal work. There was this old guy in his 70's back then that had a very low cost outboard. It was a private label unit but Clinton made the 2-cycle powerhead. I had service it several times over the previous years. He brought it in because it had quit on him while he was fishing. I took the side cover off the motor and the rod was hanging out the side. I asked if he heard anything and he said no, it just stopped running. I still laugh when I think about that.

But to be a bit on the serious side, I didn't know if the rod bearing would make an intermittent noise or if once it starts to go, it just rattles all the time until that one last BAMMMMMM.

The funny thing about this is that it's soooo quiet at idle and off idle when you're free reving it.

I'll check out all my mounts again. I know loose things can make weird noises. When I first started riding this last year I heard what I thought was spark knock. I tried to retime the bike and I also went with octane booster but nothing worked. I later found out that the rear brake pedal bushing is shot and the return spring wasn't tight enough to hole the pedal without vibration. Once I found out that all I had to do was lift my foot up into the pedal, the noise went away, then I could hear the real sparknock.

The noise does sound like it could be a vibration of a part or two, but the fact that it makes this rattle clanking sound either under or off power is driving me nuts, I know, too late......

Thanks again for the help and the subtle jabs, you've got have a bit of fun, right????

Dan

[tequacha]

Originally Posted by Dan_Lockwood

I remember many years ago when I was just a kid, mid to late teens, my parents had a marina and I did all the mechincal work. There was this old guy in his 70's back then that had a very low cost outboard. It was a private label unit but Clinton made the 2-cycle powerhead. I had service it several times over the previous years. He brought it in because it had quit on him while he was fishing. I took the side cover off the motor and the rod was hanging out the side. I asked if he heard anything and he said no, it just stopped running. I still laugh when I think about that.

But to be a bit on the serious side, I didn't know if the rod bearing would make an intermittent noise or if once it starts to go, it just rattles all the time until that one last BAMMMMMM.

The funny thing about this is that it's soooo quiet at idle and off idle when you're free reving it.

I'll check out all my mounts again. I know loose things can make weird noises. When I first started riding this last year I heard what I thought was spark knock. I tried to retime the bike and I also went with octane booster but nothing worked. I later found out that the rear brake pedal bushing is shot and the return spring wasn't tight enough to hole the pedal without vibration. Once I found out that all I had to do was lift my foot up into the pedal, the noise went away, then I could hear the real sparknock.

The noise does sound like it could be a vibration of a part or two, but the fact that it makes this rattle clanking sound either under or off power is driving me nuts, I know, too late......

Thanks again for the help and the subtle jabs, you've got have a bit of fun, right????

Dan

forgot to finish, gearing up driven sprocket (smaller diameter) can cause drive chain to drag on front chainguard mount. Octane boosters are a waste of money. If you need to raise octane, go to nearest airport and get some 100lol, mix it 25% with pump gas and your detonation problems will be solved.

[HDMD88]

Originally Posted by tequacha

Its hard to tell what a noise could be when its described other than listening to it. I never had any luck with those shims, put them in and 6 months later they would be gone. We used to remachine a new spacer to compensate for end play. I do believe setting solid lifters is a lost art.

Your right those wave washer shims NEVER last and they find ther way down the return hole and into the breather gear.

[HDMD88]

FLH came with a 23 tooth trany sprocket and a 52 rear sprocket if my memory serves me correct....your running a 24 trany and a 48 rear....your lugging that old dresser, that causes detonation and a terrible shutter down low.
I know that doesn't answer your knock problem but as stated its hard to say what noise is unless you hear it your self.