Points to Electronic Ignition : V-Twin Forum: Harley Davidson Forums
» Sponsors

» Insurance
Go Back   V-Twin Forum : Harley-Davidson Motorcycle Forums > Technical Discussion Forums > Pre-Evolution Engine Technical Discussion
New User? Register Forgot Password

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 04-12-2005, 09:04 AM   #1 (permalink)
IronButt
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Tonawanda, NY
Posts: 355
slickone wants to know Dino or Syn?
Question Points to Electronic Ignition

I would like to install the V-Thunder HyperFyre™ Digital Covert Ignition on a 1976 shovelhead FLH 93” stroker motor. This unit eliminates the mechanical advance unit and the points. Has anyone done this? They recommend using a VOES with this unit. They say it will work with or without it though. To install a VOES, I will have to get a different manifold from S&S with the vacuum fitting. Anyone have experience with installing this ignition unit or a similar one (Crane). Did you use a VOES? I just wonder if it will work OK without the VOES.
__________________
Marc M.

2001 Roadking

Last edited by slickone; 04-12-2005 at 11:02 AM.
slickone is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Old 04-12-2005, 11:57 AM   #2 (permalink)
VTF Site Sponsor
 
springer-'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Maine
Posts: 9,962
springer- is still riding a stock bike springer- is still riding a stock bike
I would run it without the VOES. Worst case you can add it later if you think you need it. We used to remove the stock ignition systems in the early 90's and disconnect the VOES. Then install a Single fire ignition, never had any complaints. But I wouldn't go through all the trouble of adding.
__________________
What do I know, I ride a Shovel


Check out Ride of the Month






207-621-8089
springer- is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 04-12-2005, 12:26 PM   #3 (permalink)
VTF Site Sponsor
 
springer-'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Maine
Posts: 9,962
springer- is still riding a stock bike springer- is still riding a stock bike
OK, so here is a more detailed explination. The VOES is a Vacuum Operated Electric Switch, hense the name. What is does is Retard the timing under a high load situation. The VOES have differant vacuum setting that trigger the switch. So there are differant VOES for differant bikes. If you change the configuration of your motor, like cams, head work etc., then the VOES may not work correctly for your application anymore. My understanding is that the switch is normally open and the vacuum closes it. If this is the case, you simply disconnect it to disable it. The switch would need testing to verify that.

In the original question it says that the module you want to use is capable of either using it or not. Make sure it is wired according to the instruction if you are not going to use it.

In the good old days, anything over about 2000 rpm's you would want to be FULL ADVANCE and if you use the VOES that would retard the timing at rpm's over the 2000 mark costing you power. I believe the VOES was added for emmisions purposes.
__________________
What do I know, I ride a Shovel


Check out Ride of the Month






207-621-8089
springer- is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 04-12-2005, 02:07 PM   #4 (permalink)
IronButt
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Tonawanda, NY
Posts: 355
slickone wants to know Dino or Syn?
Hey Springer

Great explanation! I think I will try the ignition without VOES first. Thanks alot for the help! Yeah, I noticed that on some of these ignitions the VOES wire is grounded and on some it is simply taped up.

Thanks!
__________________
Marc M.

2001 Roadking
slickone is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 04-12-2005, 04:11 PM   #5 (permalink)
IronButt
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Wis/Ill Stateline
Posts: 171
Sieg wants to know Dino or Syn?
I thought about an electronic module for my 70 E-Glide, but then I thought about how rough it would be to get one at 2 in the morning, and how little space a spare set a points takes up.
__________________
Vidi et Scio
Sieg is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 04-12-2005, 06:06 PM   #6 (permalink)
Highly Seasoned Rider!
 
newultraclassic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Sacramento County, California
Posts: 4,884
newultraclassic wants to know Dino or Syn?
Voes

Quote:
Originally Posted by slickone
I would like to install the V-Thunder HyperFyre™ Digital Covert Ignition on a 1976 shovelhead FLH 93” stroker motor. This unit eliminates the mechanical advance unit and the points. Has anyone done this? They recommend using a VOES with this unit. They say it will work with or without it though. To install a VOES, I will have to get a different manifold from S&S with the vacuum fitting. Anyone have experience with installing this ignition unit or a similar one (Crane). Did you use a VOES? I just wonder if it will work OK without the VOES.
==================================
The VOES frst came out on the Evolution bikes in 1985 that were from the factory with a "lean burn" jetting. They were so lean that they were much more prone to pre-ignition. So, thus, the VOES was developed to retard spark 5 or so degrees, depending upon the color code of the VOES. I forgot all of the color codes but they are in the manual. Also, you can re-set them if you are of strong heart. As Mr. Springer says, it also had to do with emissions.

On a shovelhead, with stock compression - 7.5:1, you wouldn't ever need a VOES. You say you have a stroker, though and likely your compression is therefore higher.

So, I guess the answer to whether or not you need one is whether or not your bike will pre-ignite/ping under normal operation, especially when accelerating under a load. Some folks have gone to dual plugs to get rid of the pre-ignition. If you have pre-ignition, a VOES would be a good idea. If you can find one, that is. The dealers may have some but they are terribly expensive and to be avoided if you don't need one. I think they are about $75 bucks new......I found a used one at a swap meet but never installed it on my Shovelhead because it won't ping under any circumstances. My Spyke single fire ignition has a VOES wire that I don't use for that reason. Most new ignitions have the VOES and tach driver convertor as accessory wires like the Spyke.

They are now going out of print with the EFI bikes and the advent of the TC-88 EFI bikes which don't use them.

I presume that your ignition has a driver wire for the VOES. One of the VOES wires goes to ground and the other to the ignition VOES driver wire. It's just a vacuum operated solenoid that takes the VOES wire to ground at certain vacuum conditions.

As the place to hook up the VOES tap, if you have looked at the top of a CV carburetor, the tap is right on the top of the carb, behind the butterfly. So, you really don't have to buy another manifold if your S&S carb. doesn't have a tap. Just take your manifold off and drill it for a 3/16 brass tube and press one in with some red locktite so that you can connect the VOES to the tap. Thus, when the vacuum is sufficient the VOES will open and retard the spark.


Hope this helps.

Last edited by newultraclassic; 04-12-2005 at 06:14 PM.
newultraclassic is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 04-12-2005, 06:19 PM   #7 (permalink)
Highly Seasoned Rider!
 
newultraclassic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Sacramento County, California
Posts: 4,884
newultraclassic wants to know Dino or Syn?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sieg
I thought about an electronic module for my 70 E-Glide, but then I thought about how rough it would be to get one at 2 in the morning, and how little space a spare set a points takes up.
-----------
Good point, no pun intended! I used to carry a spare dual fire coil with point plate, weights and the whole ball of wax when I first got a single fire electronic. After about five years of no failure, I just leave that stuff at home.

When I first got my 1982 FXS it had the HD electronic. I went through several of those before I changed to an Aftermarket electronic.

The modern ones are really dependable.
newultraclassic is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 04-12-2005, 08:07 PM   #8 (permalink)
VTF Site Sponsor
 
springer-'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Maine
Posts: 9,962
springer- is still riding a stock bike springer- is still riding a stock bike
Quote:
Originally Posted by newultraclassic
==================================
The VOES frst came out on the Evolution bikes in 1985 that were from the factory with a "lean burn" jetting. They were so lean that they were much more prone to pre-ignition. So, thus, the VOES was developed to retard spark 5 or so degrees, depending upon the color code of the VOES. I forgot all of the color codes but they are in the manual. Also, you can re-set them if you are of strong heart. As Mr. Springer says, it also had to do with emissions.

On a shovelhead, with stock compression - 7.5:1, you wouldn't ever need a VOES. You say you have a stroker, though and likely your compression is therefore higher.

So, I guess the answer to whether or not you need one is whether or not your bike will pre-ignite/ping under normal operation, especially when accelerating under a load. Some folks have gone to dual plugs to get rid of the pre-ignition. If you have pre-ignition, a VOES would be a good idea. If you can find one, that is. The dealers may have some but they are terribly expensive and to be avoided if you don't need one. I think they are about $75 bucks new......I found a used one at a swap meet but never installed it on my Shovelhead because it won't ping under any circumstances. My Spyke single fire ignition has a VOES wire that I don't use for that reason. Most new ignitions have the VOES and tach driver convertor as accessory wires like the Spyke.

They are now going out of print with the EFI bikes and the advent of the TC-88 EFI bikes which don't use them.

I presume that your ignition has a driver wire for the VOES. One of the VOES wires goes to ground and the other to the ignition VOES driver wire. It's just a vacuum operated solenoid that takes the VOES wire to ground at certain vacuum conditions.

As the place to hook up the VOES tap, if you have looked at the top of a CV carburetor, the tap is right on the top of the carb, behind the butterfly. So, you really don't have to buy another manifold if your S&S carb. doesn't have a tap. Just take your manifold off and drill it for a 3/16 brass tube and press one in with some red locktite so that you can connect the VOES to the tap. Thus, when the vacuum is sufficient the VOES will open and retard the spark.


Hope this helps.
Newultraclassic is absolutely correct. I left out the part about the pinging but that is what will determine if you want to run a VOES or not. I have a High Compression Shovel and it doesn't ping but I run Dual Plug Heads and I run my S&S "E" carb on the Fat side.
__________________
What do I know, I ride a Shovel


Check out Ride of the Month






207-621-8089
springer- is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 04-12-2005, 10:47 PM   #9 (permalink)
Highly Seasoned Rider!
 
newultraclassic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Sacramento County, California
Posts: 4,884
newultraclassic wants to know Dino or Syn?
Quote:
Originally Posted by springer-
Newultraclassic is absolutely correct. I left out the part about the pinging but that is what will determine if you want to run a VOES or not. I have a High Compression Shovel and it doesn't ping but I run Dual Plug Heads and I run my S&S "E" carb on the Fat side.

=================
Yep, that's the whole point, If it doesn't ping, there's really no reason to go to a VOES. Running a bit on the rich side is not a bad idea either.

I changed to a CV carburetor because they are really easy to get ahold of. I just removed the elbow that was used for the VOES and plugged it with a piece of aluminum dowel. If I were to go to like 9:1 on the engine some day, a VOES would be a logical step.

The Shovelhead is still my favorite of all of the Harleys and I've owned them all the way back to a VL.


Last edited by newultraclassic; 04-13-2005 at 01:37 PM.
newultraclassic is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 04-13-2005, 12:27 PM   #10 (permalink)
IronButt
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Tonawanda, NY
Posts: 355
slickone wants to know Dino or Syn?
I will definitely take all of your advice into consideration. Lots of good stuff here. Thanks again! I had two Shovels (67 &76) and a 64 Panhead in my past. I love working on Harleys.
__________________
Marc M.

2001 Roadking
slickone is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 04-13-2005, 02:39 PM   #11 (permalink)
IronButt
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Delaware
Posts: 280
JCH187 wants to know Dino or Syn?
Since we are on the subject. (Slickone, not trying to hijack your thread here), my 79 FXS still has points, and hasn't been fired up yet after the rebuild (only punched out .010", stock cam). Would it be beneficial to go ahead and put like a Dyna S ignition in there? From what everyone around here tells me, yes it would be. But they are the ones trying to sell me something too. Then, is it dual fire, or single fire, with or without a coil? I think I have seen the single fire Dyna that uses your stock coil for like 170.00. Would this be a good move? Thanks guys, J.C.
JCH187 is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 04-13-2005, 03:54 PM   #12 (permalink)
IronButt
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Tonawanda, NY
Posts: 355
slickone wants to know Dino or Syn?
the ignition I ordered is a V-Thunder HyperFyre™ Digital Covert Ignition. It has a switch to go dual or single. So you could by the cheaper coil for now. This is going on a 93" stroker. It was highly recommended to lose the points. This particular ignition costs $189 without the coil. Price some of these units through Jireh Cycles and go to the websites of the manufacturers and look at the tech manuals to see what is involved in changing to electronic ingnition. Crane and Spyke have online manuals. V-thunder will e-mail you a copy if you ask.
__________________
Marc M.

2001 Roadking
slickone is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 04-13-2005, 04:17 PM   #13 (permalink)
VTF Site Sponsor
 
springer-'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Maine
Posts: 9,962
springer- is still riding a stock bike springer- is still riding a stock bike
Quote:
Originally Posted by JCH187
Since we are on the subject. (Slickone, not trying to hijack your thread here), my 79 FXS still has points, and hasn't been fired up yet after the rebuild (only punched out .010", stock cam). Would it be beneficial to go ahead and put like a Dyna S ignition in there? From what everyone around here tells me, yes it would be. But they are the ones trying to sell me something too. Then, is it dual fire, or single fire, with or without a coil? I think I have seen the single fire Dyna that uses your stock coil for like 170.00. Would this be a good move? Thanks guys, J.C.
Pick anything BUT the Dyna S. The Dyna S ignition has a horrible Dwell time. In fact it leaves the coil or coils on all the time except when it fires the plug/s. Any other good electronic ignition will only turn the coil/s on long enough to reach saturation and then fire the plug/s. In the case of a single fire ignition with 2 "green" 3 ohm coils, it will draw 4 amps per coil and both coils will be on most of the time, so it will draw 8 amps. Any other ignition will never have both coils on at the same time so it will never draw more than 4 amps. And most of the time it won't draw any amps.

Why does this mater? Because any time you are drawing more current (amps) your charging system is under a greater load and using more horsepower. It also heats up the coils. And if you ever leave the bike on and not running (by mistake), it can melt and crack your coils and then it won't start.

The Dyna S is the worst ignition system you can buy in my opinion. By the way, I designed and manufactured an aftermarket electronic ignition system about 12 years ago that is still in production today and sold by a major aftermarket company.

The single fire Dyna does not use the stock coil, it requires the use of 2 coils or it would not be single fire. Dyna makes 2 differant ignitions and requires the right one for the coil that you are going to use.
__________________
What do I know, I ride a Shovel


Check out Ride of the Month






207-621-8089

Last edited by springer-; 04-13-2005 at 04:20 PM.
springer- is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 04-13-2005, 10:12 PM   #14 (permalink)
Highly Seasoned Rider!
 
newultraclassic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Sacramento County, California
Posts: 4,884
newultraclassic wants to know Dino or Syn?
Dyna-sore.

Quote:
Originally Posted by springer-
Pick anything BUT the Dyna S. The Dyna S ignition has a horrible Dwell time. In fact it leaves the coil or coils on all the time except when it fires the plug/s. Any other good electronic ignition will only turn the coil/s on long enough to reach saturation and then fire the plug/s. In the case of a single fire ignition with 2 "green" 3 ohm coils, it will draw 4 amps per coil and both coils will be on most of the time, so it will draw 8 amps. Any other ignition will never have both coils on at the same time so it will never draw more than 4 amps. And most of the time it won't draw any amps.

Why does this mater? Because any time you are drawing more current (amps) your charging system is under a greater load and using more horsepower. It also heats up the coils. And if you ever leave the bike on and not running (by mistake), it can melt and crack your coils and then it won't start.

The Dyna S is the worst ignition system you can buy in my opinion. By the way, I designed and manufactured an aftermarket electronic ignition system about 12 years ago that is still in production today and sold by a major aftermarket company.

The single fire Dyna does not use the stock coil, it requires the use of 2 coils or it would not be single fire. Dyna makes 2 differant ignitions and requires the right one for the coil that you are going to use.

-----------------
As you say, I would stay away from the Dyna, especially the ones that use the weights. I don't know about the rest of the line, however. I went through two new Dyna dual fire units (with weights) before I changed to a Spyke. I had the matching Dyna coil and the units each lasted about a year. They just quit on the road. Fortunately I used to carry a point plate with me....

My Spyke unit wasn't cheap, about $400 with the single fire (double wound) matching coil. It's just been excellent for close to five years. Starting is great and idle is very reliable. Performance is also very good with nice-looking plugs. The coil will fit under the chrome FXS coil cover and it also has VOES and Tachometer unit wires.

The points and weights are not close enough on timing and the spark is generally rather weak compared to the modern units. Also, the OEM HD electronic ignitions from the 1980's don't seem to last very long either.

I think most of the top-of-the-line single fire units will do the job for you.
The single fire units make the bike sound very crisp when running and that's a good thng.

My 2 cents.

Last edited by newultraclassic; 04-13-2005 at 10:19 PM.
newultraclassic is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 04-14-2005, 02:37 AM   #15 (permalink)
Shithead
 
petelogan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Luxembourg
Posts: 4,835
petelogan is reading this now saying WTF is this?
Quote:
Originally Posted by springer-
Because any time you are drawing more current (amps) your charging system is under a greater load and using more horsepower.
You guys know a lot more than I ever will, and I agree with everything you say, but 'more horsepower' has me a little puzzled. Stator not connected to throttle on my bike Me no comprende

On Vacuum Retard systems - If fitted, I just chuck them away. They are just for emissions regs. If I get detonation, something else is not set up right, and IMHO it's a mistake to cover up the real problem, which is mixture.

Just for reference, I run a 80" motor, probably higher than stock compression, but I don't know that for sure, S&S 'E' with the smallest jets available, two Dial-A-Jets from ThunderProducts, single Dyna coil (so dual fire), Dyna magnetic timing pickup, single plugs (stock HD), and mechanical advance, no retard. The advance unit is set up to tip all the advance in in a straight line from idle to 1500rpm. At 1500 it's all in and stays the same after that. So programmable doesn't matter to me, except for reliability. So far, so good, though it has to be said I don't have a helluva lot of miles on this setup yet. The mechanical advance I strip, clean and re-oil Every time I change the engine oil - just part of routine service.

The only problem I have ever had with an electronic unit has been on cars where I have mounted the solid state unit (brain) too close to the motor and it has overheated. When it did this, it worked correctly again once it cooled down a little, but it seemed like a coil going out at the time, which is why I now have several 'spare' coils

It's also how I found out that it's a PITA to convert back to points at 11pm by torchlight

Pete
__________________
”This above all: to thine ownself be true,
And it must follow, as the night the day,
Thou canst not then be false to any man.”

-Shakespeare-Hamlet

"Generally speaking, you don't die on motorcycles.
You die a few yards away from what's left of them."

-Me

It appears I am not only a NRA Life Member, but also a Patriot Guard.

**** - I didn't know that

Holy Mololey, Batman, I didn't know I was a GOA Life Member, either

Being drunk seems to be better

Last edited by petelogan; 04-14-2005 at 03:05 AM.
petelogan is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the V-Twin Forum : Harley-Davidson Motorcycle Forums forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself. WE WILL SEND A CONFIRMATION EMAIL TO THE ADDRESS YOU PROVIDE. If the email address is NOT VALID, you will not be given access to the system!
Email Address:

Log-in

Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.



Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are On


Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v3.2.2

All times are GMT -5. The time now is 07:01 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Content Relevant URLs by vBSEO 3.6.0
(C)2001-2012 V-twinForum.com All Rights Reserved (C)2001- V-twinForum.com All Rights Reserved
Motorcycle News, Videos and Reviews
Honda Grom Forum Harley Davidson Forum Honda 600RR Kawasaki Forum Yamaha R6 Forum Yamaha FZ-09 Forum
1199 Panigale Forum Roadglide Forum Honda CBR1000 Forum Vulcan Forum Yamaha R1 Forum Yamaha R3 Forum
Ducati Monster Forum Harley Forums Honda CBR250R Forum ZX10R Forum Star Raider Forum Yamaha Viking Forum
Suzuki GSXR Forum V-Rod Forums Honda Shadow Forum Kawasaki Motorcycle Forum Star Warrior Forum KTM Duke 390 Forum
SV650 Forum BMW S1000RR Forum Honda Fury Forum Kawasaki Versys Forum Drag Racing Forum Ducati 899 Panigale Forum
Suzuki V-Strom BMW K1600 Triumph Forum Victory Forums Sportbikes BMW NineT Forum
Volusia Forum BMW F800 Forum Triumph 675 Forum MV Agusta Forum HD Street Forum Suzuki GW250 Forum
Yamaha Motorcycles Victory Gunner Forum Honda Vultus Forum HD LiveWire Forum Ninja H2 Forum Ducati Scrambler Forum