What is the etiquette for a traffic stop?

[stanley4512]

Originally Posted by Lefty

Sure, if I'm requested to stop I will but I won't act submissive or brown nose the coksucker.

Lefty

Well, I sort of agree with Lefty here, but I think his post is a bit harsh. I agree that we all have our rights as citizens, and that LEOs are not 'better' than us. I agree that we shouldn't "act submissive" as Lefty put it. However, not causing the LEO to think you're reaching for a weapon, may just save your life. Thats what he's prepared for. He's trying to go home safely, and will pull his gun if he feels somethings not right. Why put yourself in that position, where you're on the bad end of the gun? Its not "acting submissive" or "brown nosing", just about being smart.

[steveusmc]

Originally Posted by LarryM

It is my understanding that cops don't need 'probable cause' to conduct a patdown for weapons for their own safety. Only a 'reasonable suspicion' is needed. See the US Supreme Court decision regarding Terry vs. Ohio.

I had been rightly stopped for speeding. I was doing wrong. I was not free to leave. I admitted being a doofus that day. I think speeding is a motor vehicle 'crime' in PA. The trooper patted me down for weapons and felt things in my pockets. He asked me to take them out which I did - wallet, hankerchief, keys, change and cell phone. He was satisified and let me go.

The side of the highway is not the place to argue Constitutional rights with a police officer.

"Motor vehicle crime"? You are really stretching it with that one to give the LEO a "reasonable suspicion" to pat me down or "turn out my pockets". How often does a CAGER get patted down or searched for a typical traffic violation? I would say it's the follow-on conduct that would cause any further action from the LEO.

[Retrax]

Lefty,

Thanks for your follow up post. You have a good point there. In my state you have to have at least an Associates Degree (most have Bachelors and some have Masters) before you can enter the Law Enforcement Training Center. When I went, it was thirteen weeks of 12 to 16 hour training days in addition to the college degree, then a lengthy written state board exam. After that, a candidate has the privilege to interview for a job and attempt to enter the work force. It is rare for a person to have a lead on a job or a position waiting before the college, L.E.T.C. Academy course, and state P.O.S.T. licensing board tests are passed.

That said, most of the individuals I work with have tremendous integrity and a high degree professionalism. Our department takes EVERY citizen complaint seriously no matter how minor the allegation, and they will initiate an internal affairs investigation (now commonly referred to the division of ethics and professional standards) at the request of the person filing the complaint.

I must concede that every job has A-Holes, however, the public should not have to deal with abuses of any kind, and we do a pretty good job of getting rid of those types. When I field trained new recruits I always told them to approach people in a professional, polite, and mutually respectful manner, and expect the same in return (if you approach people and initiate a contact with an attitude, you can expect the person you stop to respond the same way - and I don't blame them). I guess this is why I have only had two citizen complaints in nearly twenty years. Both were deemed unfounded (the person was more upset with receiving a ticket than with the messenger who delivered it).

Lack of education, poor training, acceptance of unprofessional conduct, and administrations that don't care about public input, are issues that give all of us in this job a collective black eye. I don't eat dounuts, but I do have an occasional scone with my coffee! J/K, ride safe!

[Big MAK]

Originally Posted by Lefty

To every real LEO visiting this board I apologize for post #24. Sometimes I get carried away. It's just that I happen to live in a part of the world where the local cops are untrained obese dimwits that view themselves as gods. I'm highly respectful of and appreciative of our MO state troopers, city of STL cops, ST Louis County cops and many others, but the bumpkin brigade sucks and it has a huge membership. Probably a matter of you get what you pay for.

Lefty

Amen. Unfortunately; here in Omaha Nebraska; the entire city police force is "bumpkin brigade". If you wear a city of Omaha police uniform my first thought is you're an azhat out to f me over. Many examples of same so it's 'guilt by membership' same as I wouldn't trust someone demanding my compliance while they were wearing a nazi uniform. Heck; even the city of Omaha prosecutors are in that category. We were trying to track down some pedophile freak (we figure he as after his young daughers) that broke into my neighbors house (had finger prints, matching descriptions from four neighbors, car plates -- cops refused to follow up) and they told me "why would we help you; we're out to get you!" !! The only people the city of Omaha prosectors will prosecute (vehemently prosecute) are white people who have a tragedy. They're constantly removing children from white people's homes, and constantly arresting and jailing white people that have an accident (not alchohol or speed related; a simple but tragic accident). If you're Black or Latino? Free pass. They won't touch them. Black or Latino speed freak prostitute pimping your kid on a street corner? Have a nice day. White family and the kid trips and breaks a finger? All children get sent to a variety of foster homes.

However all the Nebraska Sheriff depts and State Troopers I've had dealings with are professional and courteous.

.. .. hmm. Sore subject with me. My neighbors house thing was 'too close to home'. Sorry for the de-rail.

Good info over-all; thanks LEOs and others.

[LarryM]

Steve - This thread is about motorcycle etiquette, not cagers. If you want to hijack the thread, why not start another one dealing with cagers?

In some states speeding is a felony. That's considered a crime. It other states its a misdemeanor. That too is considered a crime but of a lesser nature.

[BWalker]

Regarding concealed carry. In NC the CCW classes specifically teach you to let the officer know first thing, "I am carrying concealed and I do have a permit". They have the right to ask you for your weapon until they are done with the stop. I've been stopped/license checked a few times and only one officer showed any concern at all and all he did was ask where the gun was. I don't think NC has a cross check system because I was stopped one time and was not carrying and didn't say anything about the permit. Not sure about this though and I am thinking it may be a good idea to tell them either way.

[steveusmc]

Originally Posted by LarryM

Steve - This thread is about motorcycle etiquette, not cagers. If you want to hijack the thread, why not start another one dealing with cagers?

In some states speeding is a felony. That's considered a crime. It other states its a misdemeanor. That too is considered a crime but of a lesser nature.

Go take a pill Larry. My comment wasn't about cagers. It was about the routine of SEARCHES. If you want a cager thread...YOU go start one. Speeding can quickly turn into a felony. Don't try to educate me about things I know plenty about. You should actually READ what I'm saying rather than trying to moderate. And I didn't hijack the thread.....and you sir..are very RUDE.

[steveusmc]

Originally Posted by steveusmc

Go take a pill Larry. My comment wasn't about cagers. It was about the routine of SEARCHES. If you want a cager thread...YOU go start one. Speeding can quickly turn into a felony. Don't try to educate me about things I know plenty about. You should actually READ what I'm saying rather than trying to moderate. And I didn't hijack the thread.....and you sir..are very RUDE.

I'm sorry I was so wordy in my last post. What I should have said is:
"Larry, go pound sand".

[AZFXSTB]

Originally Posted by nixdad

Let me add one more thing. If you are carrying a concealed weapon, tell the officer up front. It will negate any surprises and you probably won't find yourself proned out on the ground, and then cuffed and stuffed in the back of a patrol car. Just let the officer know that you are carrying a concealed weapon and tell the officer where it is located on your person. It's obvious to tell you that while you're advising the officer, keep your hands plainly visible. Jsut remember, the least amount of surprises, the better.

You know I have to comment on this. If it ended up "Cuffed and stuffed" because I lawfully had a CW on me (I see you are in AZ so you must know I am not required to tell you I am carrying) I promise you that would be a CLM on your part. Now that being said IF I get pulled over when I hand the officer my license I also hand him my CCW card and if that doesn't serve as notice that I armed I suggest a different line of work is in order for that cowboy. A badge does not give you the right to infringe on someones constitutional rights UNLESS you are conducting a "lawful" felony stop then all bets are off and I do not have a problem with an LEO doing what he needs to do to make sure there are no surprises. Sorry if this offends anyone but I get defensive when I see someone talking about abusing there official position and banking on a citizens ignorants to the law.

[nixdad]

Originally Posted by AZFXSTB

You know I have to comment on this. If it ended up "Cuffed and stuffed" because I lawfully had a CW on me (I see you are in AZ so you must know I am not required to tell you I am carrying) I promise you that would be a CLM on your part. Now that being said IF I get pulled over when I hand the officer my license I also hand him my CCW card and if that doesn't serve as notice that I armed I suggest a different line of work is in order for that cowboy. A badge does not give you the right to infringe on someones constitutional rights UNLESS you are conducting a "lawful" felony stop then all bets are off and I do not have a problem with an LEO doing what he needs to do to make sure there are no surprises. Sorry if this offends anyone but I get defensive when I see someone talking about abusing there official position and banking on a citizens ignorants to the law.

If you handed me a CW permit, there are no issues with that, I agree. And if you handed it to me, I would assume you are armed. No problem. I was referring to the scenario where a person may be carrying on their belt, for instance, they go to get their wallet out of their back pocket and a gun is spotted without me knowing that you are carrying. For officer safety reasons, I would be justified to draw down on you.

That being said, I totally agree with you that a badge does not give an officer the right to infringe upon OUR second amendment rights.

[AZFXSTB]

Originally Posted by nixdad

For officer safety reasons, I would be justified to draw down on you.

Wow thats a pretty quick escalation of force there my friend. Lets look at it from a snake's I mean lawyer's standpoint. In AZ the threat of the use of deadly force can legally be responded to with the USE of deadly force. So you just drew down on someone (Threat of deadly force) who is not legally required to even tell you they are armed and is legally permitted to have said deadly weapon they respond in kind and silly stuff happens. Now don't get me wrong LEO's have a shitty job when it comes to dealing with the unknown and at the end of the day going home safe and alive is the goal. Maybe you are not as quick on the draw on the job as you seam to be in words but if so you might want to slow down a bit because while your department and FOP might show support for officer safety in a court of law I think it would be different. Now before anyone gets bent I have to say I DISAGREE with the fact that if pulled over by a LEO (In Arizona) you do not have to disclose that fact that you are armed I think that puts LEO's in more danger and puts them at a disadvantage legally as well but it is the law. I would hate to hear about some
LEO getting charged by some POS Lawyer because he drew his weapon on some POS and they turned it around on the officer. There is always the old adage of "I would rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6" and I think if I was in LE that would be my approach BUT we live in a society that has some BS laws and this leads me to my final statement that I have adopted as my own "Society is the art of repressing animal instinct" by yours truly.

Ride safe and I thank all you LEO's that do a great job keeping the sheep in line and to all the Veterans Thank you, myself included, all gave some some gave ALL

[Dansville Rob]

I have a question for the LEO's out there.

When you are dealing with a citizen, and you find out they have a CPL, does that make you more or less nervous / respectful of them?

To my way of thinking, a CPL is basically a "good citizenship" card. In order to have one I was finger printed, went through an FBI background check, and proved I do not have a history of violence or certain other crimes. Having that card proves that I have never been caught illegally using a weapon or carrying under the influence. It also demonstrates that I'm the kind of person that plays by the rules, and that I went to the trouble and expense to follow the law even when it is inconvenient and overly bureaucratic.

[Gerg]

Originally Posted by AZFXSTB

Wow thats a pretty quick escalation of force there my friend. Lets look at it from a snake's I mean lawyer's standpoint. In AZ the threat of the use of deadly force can legally be responded to with the USE of deadly force. So you just drew down on someone (Threat of deadly force) who is not legally required to even tell you they are armed and is legally permitted to have said deadly weapon they respond in kind and silly stuff happens. Now don't get me wrong LEO's have a shitty job when it comes to dealing with the unknown and at the end of the day going home safe and alive is the goal. Maybe you are not as quick on the draw on the job as you seam to be in words but if so you might want to slow down a bit because while your department and FOP might show support for officer safety in a court of law I think it would be different. Now before anyone gets bent I have to say I DISAGREE with the fact that if pulled over by a LEO (In Arizona) you do not have to disclose that fact that you are armed I think that puts LEO's in more danger and puts them at a disadvantage legally as well but it is the law. I would hate to hear about some
LEO getting charged by some POS Lawyer because he drew his weapon on some POS and they turned it around on the officer. There is always the old adage of "I would rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6" and I think if I was in LE that would be my approach BUT we live in a society that has some BS laws and this leads me to my final statement that I have adopted as my own "Society is the art of repressing animal instinct" by yours truly.

Ride safe and I thank all you LEO's that do a great job keeping the sheep in line and to all the Veterans Thank you, myself included, all gave some some gave ALL

My 2 cents
Your permit allows you to carry a Concealed weapon. In getting your wallet and registration and you allowed ANYONE to see the weapon you are no longer carrying concealed. The Officer has the right to protect himself and draw down until the facts are established.

It's real easy to get both the permit and license at the same time and tell the officer that you're carrying if there is any possibility he'll see the weapon before the permit.

Hell, you're probably right with your approach... but you might be dead right.

[Texan]

Originally Posted by AZFXSTB

.....I am not required to tell you I am carrying....

Another interesting statement. As I noted in my previous post (#26) I wrote to several different states what I would be riding thru this summer. Florida being one and Arizona being another. I ended up writing some 15-20 different states requesting CHL/CCW information for their particular state.

I received letters back from nearly every state including the Arizona Department of Public Safety, Director R. Vanderpool's office. It states in part in Section 13-3112: "A. The department of public safety shall issue a permit to carry a concealed weapon to a person who is qualified under this section. The person shall carry the permit at all times when the person is in actual possession of the concealed weapon and shall present the permit for inspection to any law enforcement officer on request." The letter further states: that when any law enforcement officer requests your drivers license/identification you are to present your permit at that time. Thus advising him/her that your are carrying.

I know this thread is about etiquette when stopped but it amazes me how some people read the laws. The Arizona website even goes as far as to tell residents of Arizona: If you are an Arizona permit holder traveling to another state and wish to carry a concealed weapon using your Arizona permit, contact that state directly to confirm their recognition status before carrying concealed weapons there. Which is what I did and GLAD I did.

Now back to your previously scheduled programing. Sorry..!!

o~\o

[Kingodaroad]

I just always refuse the search, let them call the dogs and wait it out. They waste my time I waste theirs and saved somebody else from the hassle. Ride away free and wasn't bothering anyone in the first place.