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Old 12-17-2012, 07:16 PM   #76 (permalink)
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I'm asking who are "they"? Who gets to label them? Who is in charge of making them go to a medical professional?

As a LEO, you are dealing with these people after they have commited some crime or done something to draw attention to themselves.
I would suggest that medical professionals assign the labels. I can decide who needs to see the doctor. I am trained and experienced in this area. Many officers are. You may be surprised to learn that often the family will call for help in dealing with their mentally ill relatives.

The mentally ill call the police on themselves frequently. There is a lady in my neighborhood who calls us 50 times a day when she gets off her meds. I am not exaggerating. She called a judge dozens of times one week and made threats and we ended up with a court order to hold her down to receive a weekly injection for a while after that.

Usually these folks haven't committed crimes yet but there is no one else for the family to call for help. The police are the last resort and the catch all many times.

You wouldn't believe the things I've seen in this one area. No one cares. The State Mental Institution closed years ago. There is no where to get treatment for these people. It's a miracle we don't have a tragedy every single day.
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Old 12-17-2012, 09:12 PM   #77 (permalink)
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This is an open letter a mother wrote on the Blue Review about how desperate she is in dealing with her son's mental illness, is an eye opener .....

21 hrs ago

In the post-Newtown debate over mental illness, a distraught and exhausted mother has written a chilling article describing life with her troubled son and the health care system's shortage of options. The boy, "Michael," remains undiagnosed, and despite medication he continues to exhibit a hair-trigger temper. His mother says Michael shares characteristics with gunman Adam Lanza and other mass killers, and during his unpredictable episodes he makes frightening and violent threats. The mother's lack of help is typified by her meeting with a social worker who informed her that their best option is to get Michael charged with a crime, because "That’s the only way you’re ever going to get anything done. No one will pay attention to you unless you’ve got charges."

The entire article is republished below with permission from "The Blue Review."

Friday’s horrific national tragedy—the murder of 20 children and six adults at Sandy Hook Elementary School in New Town, Connecticut—has ignited a new discussion on violence in America. In kitchens and coffee shops across the country, we tearfully debate the many faces of violence in America: gun culture, media violence, lack of mental health services, overt and covert wars abroad, religion, politics and the way we raise our children. Liza Long, a writer based in Boise, says it’s easy to talk about guns. But it’s time to talk about mental illness.

Three days before 20 year-old Adam Lanza killed his mother, then opened fire on a classroom full of Connecticut kindergartners, my 13-year old son Michael (name changed) missed his bus because he was wearing the wrong color pants.

“I can wear these pants,” he said, his tone increasingly belligerent, the black-hole pupils of his eyes swallowing the blue irises.

“They are navy blue,” I told him. “Your school’s dress code says black or khaki pants only.”

“They told me I could wear these,” he insisted. “You’re a stupid bitch. I can wear whatever pants I want to. This is America. I have rights!”

“You can’t wear whatever pants you want to,” I said, my tone affable, reasonable. “And you definitely cannot call me a stupid bitch. You’re grounded from electronics for the rest of the day. Now get in the car, and I will take you to school.”

I live with a son who is mentally ill. I love my son. But he terrifies me.

A few weeks ago, Michael pulled a knife and threatened to kill me and then himself after I asked him to return his overdue library books. His 7 and 9 year old siblings knew the safety plan—they ran to the car and locked the doors before I even asked them to. I managed to get the knife from Michael, then methodically collected all the sharp objects in the house into a single Tupperware container that now travels with me. Through it all, he continued to scream insults at me and threaten to kill or hurt me.

That conflict ended with three burly police officers and a paramedic wrestling my son onto a gurney for an expensive ambulance ride to the local emergency room. The mental hospital didn’t have any beds that day, and Michael calmed down nicely in the ER, so they sent us home with a prescription for Zyprexa and a follow-up visit with a local pediatric psychiatrist.

We still don’t know what’s wrong with Michael. Autism spectrum, ADHD, Oppositional Defiant or Intermittent Explosive Disorder have all been tossed around at various meetings with probation officers and social workers and counselors and teachers and school administrators. He’s been on a slew of antipsychotic and mood altering pharmaceuticals, a Russian novel of behavioral plans. Nothing seems to work.

At the start of seventh grade, Michael was accepted to an accelerated program for highly gifted math and science students. His IQ is off the charts. When he’s in a good mood, he will gladly bend your ear on subjects ranging from Greek mythology to the differences between Einsteinian and Newtonian physics to Doctor Who. He’s in a good mood most of the time. But when he’s not, watch out. And it’s impossible to predict what will set him off.

Several weeks into his new junior high school, Michael began exhibiting increasingly odd and threatening behaviors at school. We decided to transfer him to the district’s most restrictive behavioral program, a contained school environment where children who can’t function in normal classrooms can access their right to free public babysitting from 7:30-1:50 Monday through Friday until they turn 18.

The morning of the pants incident, Michael continued to argue with me on the drive. He would occasionally apologize and seem remorseful. Right before we turned into his school parking lot, he said, “Look, Mom, I’m really sorry. Can I have video games back today?”

“No way,” I told him. “You cannot act the way you acted this morning and think you can get your electronic privileges back that quickly.”

His face turned cold, and his eyes were full of calculated rage. “Then I’m going to kill myself,” he said. “I’m going to jump out of this car right now and kill myself.”

That was it. After the knife incident, I told him that if he ever said those words again, I would take him straight to the mental hospital, no ifs, ands, or buts. I did not respond, except to pull the car into the opposite lane, turning left instead of right.

“Where are you taking me?” he said, suddenly worried. “Where are we going?”

“You know where we are going,” I replied.

“No! You can’t do that to me! You’re sending me to hell! You’re sending me straight to hell!”

I pulled up in front of the hospital, frantically waiving for one of the clinicians who happened to be standing outside. “Call the police,” I said. “Hurry.”

Michael was in a full-blown fit by then, screaming and hitting. I hugged him close so he couldn’t escape from the car. He bit me several times and repeatedly jabbed his elbows into my rib cage. I’m still stronger than he is, but I won’t be for much longer.

The police came quickly and carried my son screaming and kicking into the bowels of the hospital. I started to shake, and tears filled my eyes as I filled out the paperwork—“Were there any difficulties with… at what age did your child… were there any problems with.. has your child ever experienced.. does your child have…”

At least we have health insurance now. I recently accepted a position with a local college, giving up my freelance career because when you have a kid like this, you need benefits. You’ll do anything for benefits. No individual insurance plan will cover this kind of thing.

For days, my son insisted that I was lying—that I made the whole thing up so that I could get rid of him. The first day, when I called to check up on him, he said, “I hate you. And I’m going to get my revenge as soon as I get out of here.”

By day three, he was my calm, sweet boy again, all apologies and promises to get better. I’ve heard those promises for years. I don’t believe them anymore.

On the intake form, under the question, “What are your expectations for treatment?” I wrote, “I need help.”

And I do. This problem is too big for me to handle on my own. Sometimes there are no good options. So you just pray for grace and trust that in hindsight, it will all make sense.

I am sharing this story because I am Adam Lanza’s mother. I am Dylan Klebold’s and Eric Harris’s mother. I am James Holmes’s mother. I am Jared Loughner’s mother. I am Seung-Hui Cho’s mother. And these boys—and their mothers—need help. In the wake of another horrific national tragedy, it’s easy to talk about guns. But it’s time to talk about mental illness.

According to Mother Jones, since 1982, 61 mass murders involving firearms have occurred throughout the country. Of these, 43 of the killers were white males, and only one was a woman. Mother Jones focused on whether the killers obtained their guns legally (most did). But this highly visible sign of mental illness should lead us to consider how many people in the U.S. live in fear, like I do.

When I asked my son’s social worker about my options, he said that the only thing I could do was to get Michael charged with a crime. “If he’s back in the system, they’ll create a paper trail,” he said. “That’s the only way you’re ever going to get anything done. No one will pay attention to you unless you’ve got charges.”

I don’t believe my son belongs in jail. The chaotic environment exacerbates Michael’s sensitivity to sensory stimuli and doesn’t deal with the underlying pathology. But it seems like the United States is using prison as the solution of choice for mentally ill people. According to Human Rights Watch, the number of mentally ill inmates in U.S. prisons quadrupled from 2000 to 2006, and it continues to rise—in fact, the rate of inmate mental illness is five times greater (56 percent) than in the non-incarcerated population.

With state-run treatment centers and hospitals shuttered, prison is now the last resort for the mentally ill—Rikers Island, the LA County Jail and Cook County Jail in Illinois housed the nation’s largest treatment centers in 2011.

No one wants to send a 13-year old genius who loves Harry Potter and his snuggle animal collection to jail. But our society, with its stigma on mental illness and its broken healthcare system, does not provide us with other options. Then another tortured soul shoots up a fast food restaurant. A mall. A kindergarten classroom. And we wring our hands and say, “Something must be done.”

I agree that something must be done. It’s time for a meaningful, nation-wide conversation about mental health. That’s the only way our nation can ever truly heal.

God help me. God help Michael. God help us all.

http://thebluereview.org/i-am-adam-lanzas-mother/
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Old 12-17-2012, 10:21 PM   #78 (permalink)
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I would suggest that medical professionals assign the labels. I can decide who needs to see the doctor. I am trained and experienced in this area. Many officers are. You may be surprised to learn that often the family will call for help in dealing with their mentally ill relatives.

The mentally ill call the police on themselves frequently. There is a lady in my neighborhood who calls us 50 times a day when she gets off her meds. I am not exaggerating. She called a judge dozens of times one week and made threats and we ended up with a court order to hold her down to receive a weekly injection for a while after that.

Usually these folks haven't committed crimes yet but there is no one else for the family to call for help. The police are the last resort and the catch all many times.

You wouldn't believe the things I've seen in this one area. No one cares. The State Mental Institution closed years ago. There is no where to get treatment for these people. It's a miracle we don't have a tragedy every single day.


They come into the ER too. Often the desperate family brings them in. Or the family calls the Police and they bring them in. Usually I can get them admitted to the Psych Ward. But often they're only in for a few days. Nobody can force them to take their meds. Eventually, after they get older, they end up homeless, often having complicated things even further with addiction to street drugs or alcohol or both, on the streets, and in and out of the ER, for various and sundry complaints. The more functional ones end up hooked up with Social Services. If they are paranoid or detached enough though, they fall through the Social Services cracks.
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Old 12-18-2012, 06:00 AM   #79 (permalink)
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DJW is reading this now saying WTF is this? DJW is reading this now saying WTF is this?
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This is an open letter a mother wrote on the Blue Review about how desperate she is in dealing with her son's mental illness, is an eye opener .....

http://thebluereview.org/i-am-adam-lanzas-mother/
Wow. Great post tequila.
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Old 12-18-2012, 02:08 PM   #80 (permalink)
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And that letter is the story of just ONE mom.....i'm sure there are many many more instances of distant, detached and mentally unstable pre-teen and teenage males that lack the family support, structure and guidance, along with professional help that are just waiting to become the next serial killer or mass killer. This fact needs to be addressed more seriously than the knee jerk reaction of taking guns away from lawful citizens. The already strained school district and police budgets will make putting a full time security officer or Cop in every school in the nation pretty hard to achieve.
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Old 12-18-2012, 03:24 PM   #81 (permalink)
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Wow....what an eye opener.............
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Old 12-18-2012, 03:58 PM   #82 (permalink)
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And when a deranged 16 year old overpowers a teacher takes the gun and kills half the class, what then ? we teach the next group of teachers Kung fu , we make it mandatory that teachers take navy seal training.


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Sir; Why would you, or anyone else for that matter, always assume that a armed person is going to be disarmed.??? If that would be true, there would not be a problem in the first place, as the " Bad Guy" would be disarmed by that same 16 year old student.

Anyone who thinks gun control laws are about protecting kids in schools needs to think about something. The US responded to school shootings by creating "gun-free zones" - and school shootings did not stop. In 1974, there was a terrible hostage situation at a school in Israel, with similar loss of life to what just happened in Connecticut. Their response was to train specific school teachers/staff/volunteers for "school protection" and provide them with automatic firearms. THERE HAS NOT BEEN A SUCCESSFUL SCHOOL SHOOTING in Israel since then. Which approach really works?..



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Old 12-18-2012, 07:15 PM   #83 (permalink)
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. THERE HAS NOT BEEN A SUCCESSFUL SCHOOL SHOOTING in Israel since then. Which approach really works?..



Answer: That's in Israel, this is America, why do you think we are in the mess we are in......
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Old 12-18-2012, 08:02 PM   #84 (permalink)
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DJW is reading this now saying WTF is this? DJW is reading this now saying WTF is this?
Heard an interesting viewpoint I'll pass on.

The question was to a Doctor regarding America's infrastructure related to mental health. I expected the usual "cut backs" etc routine but what he came back with was interesting.

(paraphrasing) If you think of health care spending as definitive value, meaning the country only has so much money to spend on health care, the reason we have had to cut back on spending is that we are spending 75% of all of our health care dollars on diseases related to smoking and obesity. In his opinion just getting obesity under control would put the majority of health care spending back into the economy and leave plenty left over to have a truly effective mental health care infrastructure, one that may have been able to help this kid before he became a ticking time bomb.

This whole discussion seems to have turned on three errors, naturally exacerbated by a lazy press:

1) We can't use the word "autistic" to describe the killer because it has negative connotation to other kids who aren't killers but are autistic (or in this case aspergers). That kind of political correctness is dangerous. To ignore that this kid's inability to function in civil society simply because we don't like to "label" is recipe for ignoring the next killer with similar attributes. That no more accuses any other autistic kid than suggesting that every other 22 year old kid is a danger. There appears to be some correlation and it shouldn't be ignored over PC.

2) I've heard a lot of people suggesting that the Mother believing that her hobby as a gun -collector made her ultimately responsible. That, IMO, is absurd. She died, no doubt, believing that spending time with her son was the best way for her to "bond" with a boy that never allowed her to hug him. Ultimately she may have erred by not seeing the monster in her own child, but I think (as the letter above shows), that is something most any parent could be blind to.

3) I'll leave the gun discussion for R&P, but it's relevant. I will say this however: Our free society was based on a Constitution written for a religious and moral people. If that is not the society we now live in, then our constitutional rights are no longer valid, we go from being "free" to being "licensed," two entirely different concepts. The 2nd amendment was written FOR a free and moral people, if we choose to give up the underpinning of that freedom, the State has no choice to relive us of that freedom in order to maintain civil society.
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Old 12-18-2012, 09:33 PM   #85 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by DJW View Post
Heard an interesting viewpoint I'll pass on.

The question was to a Doctor regarding America's infrastructure related to mental health. I expected the usual "cut backs" etc routine but what he came back with was interesting.

(paraphrasing) If you think of health care spending as definitive value, meaning the country only has so much money to spend on health care, the reason we have had to cut back on spending is that we are spending 75% of all of our health care dollars on diseases related to smoking and obesity. In his opinion just getting obesity under control would put the majority of health care spending back into the economy and leave plenty left over to have a truly effective mental health care infrastructure, one that may have been able to help this kid before he became a ticking time bomb.

This whole discussion seems to have turned on three errors, naturally exacerbated by a lazy press:

1) We can't use the word "autistic" to describe the killer because it has negative connotation to other kids who aren't killers but are autistic (or in this case aspergers). That kind of political correctness is dangerous. To ignore that this kid's inability to function in civil society simply because we don't like to "label" is recipe for ignoring the next killer with similar attributes. That no more accuses any other autistic kid than suggesting that every other 22 year old kid is a danger. There appears to be some correlation and it shouldn't be ignored over PC.

2) I've heard a lot of people suggesting that the Mother believing that her hobby as a gun -collector made her ultimately responsible. That, IMO, is absurd. She died, no doubt, believing that spending time with her son was the best way for her to "bond" with a boy that never allowed her to hug him. Ultimately she may have erred by not seeing the monster in her own child, but I think (as the letter above shows), that is something most any parent could be blind to.

3) I'll leave the gun discussion for R&P, but it's relevant. I will say this however: Our free society was based on a Constitution written for a religious and moral people. If that is not the society we now live in, then our constitutional rights are no longer valid, we go from being "free" to being "licensed," two entirely different concepts. The 2nd amendment was written FOR a free and moral people, if we choose to give up the underpinning of that freedom, the State has no choice to relive us of that freedom in order to maintain civil society.
I couldn't say it any better..

http://www.v-twinforum.com/forums/2206445-post90.html


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Old 12-19-2012, 08:35 AM   #86 (permalink)
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Answer: That's in Israel, this is America, why do you think we are in the mess we are in......
We have removed the means to stop the attacker. No mental health resources. And in the worst case scenarios, no armed citizens.




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Old 12-19-2012, 08:45 PM   #87 (permalink)
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have you noticed .......

..... in all these mass killings the shooter uses expensive brand name guns? There are cheaper .223 than Bushmaster and cheaper semi-auto pistols than Glocks or Sigs. The Muslim Major at the army base used a FN-57 for $1100. HiPoint and KelTek make reliable weapons for a lot less money. Am I over-thinking this?
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Old 12-19-2012, 09:18 PM   #88 (permalink)
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HiPoint and KelTek make reliable weapons for a lot less money. Am I over-thinking this?
Yes, I think you are if your point is whether the shooter had any concern about the price of the weapons he used to commit mass murder — and then kill himself. Somehow I don't think the gun's price tag was uppermost in his mind, particularly since his mother had already purchased the guns and he planned to kill himself after committing murder.
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Old 12-19-2012, 11:59 PM   #89 (permalink)
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3) I'll leave the gun discussion for R&P, but it's relevant. I will say this however: Our free society was based on a Constitution written for a religious and moral people. If that is not the society we now live in, then our constitutional rights are no longer valid, we go from being "free" to being "licensed," two entirely different concepts. The 2nd amendment was written FOR a free and moral people, if we choose to give up the underpinning of that freedom, the State has no choice to relive us of that freedom in order to maintain civil society.
Ah but DJW, what if the "State" itself has become immoral?
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Old 12-20-2012, 12:30 AM   #90 (permalink)
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A friend of mine sent me this information. I found it to be a good read. You may not find it to your Taste but I did Mine.

A LITTLE GUN HISTORY
In 1929, the Soviet Union established gun control. >From 1929 to 1953, about 20 million dissidents, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated
In 1911, Turkey established gun control. From 1915 to 1917, 1.5 million Armenians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.
Germany established gun control in 1938 and from 1939 to 1945, a total of 13 million Jews and others who were unable to defend themselves were rounded up and exterminated.
China established gun control in 1935. From 1948 to 1952, 20 million political dissidents, unable to defend themselves were rounded up and exterminated
Guatemala established gun control in 1964. From 1964 to 1981, 100,000 Mayan
Indians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.
Uganda established gun control in 1970. From 1971 to 1979, 300,000 Christians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.
Cambodia established gun control in 1956. From 1975 to 1977, one million educated people, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.
Defenseless people rounded up and exterminated in the 20th Century because of gun control: 56 million.
You won't see this data on the US evening news, or hear politicians disseminating this information.
Guns in the hands of honest citizens save lives and property and, yes, gun-control laws adversely affect only the law-abiding citizens.
Take note my fellow Americans, before it's too late!
The next time someone talks in favor of gun control, please remind them of this history lesson.
With guns, we are 'citizens'. Without them, we are 'subjects'.
During WWII the Japanese decided not to invade America because they knew most Americans were ARMED!
If you value your freedom, please spread this antigun-control message to all of your friends.
SWITZERLAND ISSUES EVERY HOUSEHOLD A GUN!
SWITZERLAND'S GOVERNMENT TRAINS EVERY ADULT THEY ISSUE A RIFLE.
SWITZERLAND HAS THE LOWEST GUN RELATED CRIME RATE OF ANY CIVILIZED COUNTRY IN THE WORLD!!!
IT'S A NO BRAINER!
DON'T LET OUR GOVERNMENT WASTE MILLIONS OF OUR TAX DOLLARS IN AN EFFORT TO MAKE ALL LAW ABIDING CITIZENS AN EASY TARGET.
Spread the word everywhere you can that you are a firm believer in the 2nd Amendment!


Hope were not ALSO Hope the little Guy Shot the horse before he is beating it with the Club....Might loose the Right to own a Club.

signed....BUBBIE
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