The nitty-gritty of SYN3 - Page 5 : V-Twin Forum: Harley Davidson Forums

Firepower · 07-26-2004, 03:00 AM

George is right. One oil analysis means nothing. There is no trend present, which takes several analysis' to develop. Even if this were the case, you would need a "pool" of different machines running the syn3 for a proper conclusion to be done regarding the effectiveness of the lubrication properties.
The particulates in the transmission may not be the fault of the oil at all, and may be a warning of an impending failure about to occur or a mechanical problem that could be causing the high wear. It could also be caused by hard shifting or moderate abuse.
Good oil analysis is the study of "trends" and the changes that deviate from the norm, and that requires somewhat of a history of the oil changes. In most cases, it requires 3 or more. The more, the better.
That analysis was "almost" worthless, however, if it were mine, I'd be checking the transmission for a possible problem rather than pass judgement on the oil.

G

FXR2 · 07-26-2004, 12:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Firepower

George is right. One oil analysis means nothing. There is no trend present, which takes several analysis' to develop. Even if this were the case, you would need a "pool" of different machines running the syn3 for a proper conclusion to be done regarding the effectiveness of the lubrication properties.

I agree that one analysis doesn't show a trend, but I've read a number of posts here and on the CVO Harley board about folks having transmission issues after using syn3. And my own experience as well. I'm just saying that there may be something to the complaints. Or are all these people suddenly having transmission trouble after switching to syn3? That would be a strange coincidence.

Just food for thought, consideration and discussion.

FXR2 · 07-26-2004, 01:18 PM

Just to muddy up the transmission issue a bit more, check out this item on ebay:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...category=35557

In case it's already gone, it's a gallon jug of HD brand "semi-synthetic transmission lubricant. Part number 99891-84.

My question is, if HD says syn3 is good for transmissions, then what is this stuff and why are they making it? Maybe this stuff is old or something(?)

Anybody know anything about it?

george douglas · 07-26-2004, 03:41 PM

If indeed Harley is having warranty issues with their syn3 recommendation it won't take very long for them to switch their recommendations, but keep in mind how rumors can spread and take on a life on their own. For me I would have to see written documentation on tranny issues from the moco. I have been selling oil much to long to form an opinion based on hear say.

FXR2 · 07-26-2004, 05:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by george douglas

If indeed Harley is having warranty issues with their syn3 recommendation it won't take very long for them to switch their recommendations, but keep in mind how rumors can spread and take on a life on their own. For me I would have to see written documentation on tranny issues from the moco. I have been selling oil much to long to form an opinion based on hear say.

I don't know if Harley has had warranty issues. I do believe that they have had complaints. Both of my nearby dealers and two independent shops are aware that some folks have complained. The dealers don't acknowledge anything but a Parts guy told me that he "won't say anything bad, but the biggest reason to use syn3 is the one product for all three holes thing--not because it's the best thing to use...and that's all I'm saying". I don't think syn3 will cause instant or sort-term transmission failure. But I am getting the impression that a transmission is better off with some other lubricant. I don't want to find out a 30K that my trans has died and might have gone 60K+ with some other lubricant.

As for Harley publicizing written documentation--I have to laugh. If in fact the MoCo does look into this and find a problem, the best anyone can hope for is the equivalent of an automotive TSB, only for the eyes of the dealer. The car companies handle a lot of "oops" situations this way, instead of a public recall. This way a dealer can act like they're doing the customer a favor by replacing something for free or at a discount--that's if they choose to tell the customer about it. Most customers never know and just pay for a repair. I've had too much personal experience with this, believe me (several long stories). A more likely scenario is that no investigation will be done, HD will continue to market syn3 as suitable in every orifice, and if anything is compromised in transmission service, it won't acknowledge it unless it somehow costs the company more money than it is making in syn3 sales. Can you imagine how much it would cost the MoCo to acknowledge that syn3 isn't good for the trans after all? At this point? All kinds of folks would be lining up to have their transmissions placed under special extended warranty or worse--replaced.

Seahag · 07-26-2004, 05:29 PM

I don't understand all the hoopla of putting the same fluid in all three holes! As long as I'm able to buy my engine and transmission oil in one trip/one stop shopping...I don't care if I've got to buy different stuff for all three compartments. I've personally kept putting synthetic 75-90 Amsoil gearlube in the tranny and have no plans on changing....you pour it in one bottle at a time anyway. As far as having to carry only one bottle for topping off...when have you ever had to add to the tranny fluid? Me, never...I guess Amsoil is just so good it won't burn off; every time I've checked its full and looks nice and clean.

FXR2 · 07-26-2004, 08:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seahag

I don't understand all the hoopla of putting the same fluid in all three holes!

I agree--now. When I first heard this I thought it sounded good. My trans holds 24oz so I always had a partial bottle left over. Now, I'm with you--saying so what? I never lose any from the trans or primary and the engine doesn't burn enough to require topping between changes. The more I think about it it's funny that Harley pitches this as a good thing. Aren't they also claiming that their newer engines don't burn oil? So who cares if you have 8oz of oil sitting around? For their claim of benefit to have merit, they must also allow that their engines still burn enough oil to make use of the leftover amount.

To add to the transmission debate, here's a link to a thread over on the HD CVO board that starts out all about Amsoil but then some guys talk about specific experiences with syn3 in transmissions. Interesting.

http://flhrsei.org/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB...num=1078682876

george248 · 07-26-2004, 10:04 PM

I think using the syn3 in all three holes (specifically the tranny) is a compromise. Will it "work" in all three locations? Sure... but is it the best lube for your tranny? I strongly doubt it.

I think any 20-50 is too thin for the tranny if you live anywhere with exteme heat. I tried it for about 2500 miles and after riding over 100 miles in near 100 degree heat, I did not like the clunky shifting. Went to Mobil Synthetic 75-90 and no more clunking.

FXR2 · 07-26-2004, 10:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by george248

I think using the syn3 in all three holes (specifically the tranny) is a compromise. Will it "work" in all three locations? Sure... but is it the best lube for your tranny? I strongly doubt it.

This is the essence of my doubts as well.

Quote:

Originally Posted by george248

I think any 20-50 is too thin for the tranny if you live anywhere with exteme heat. I tried it for about 2500 miles and after riding over 100 miles in near 100 degree heat, I did not like the clunky shifting. Went to Mobil Synthetic 75-90 and no more clunking.

Very similar experience to my day out in 97 degrees. I've put in Amsoil 75-90 and will be making a point of riding again in high heat--not that I'm looking forward to it. Or maybe I am.

Firepower · 07-26-2004, 10:56 PM

I agree with this as well. In most cases different fluids with different characteristics (EP agents, anti-wear, etc.) are needed for different areas, because the wear/pressures/stresses are different as well as the lubrication regime (boundary, hydro-dynamic, ELH). But there are some fluids (not saying that this is one of them) that will do the job in all 3, but they are costly as hell.
If the word is that the SYN3 is not cutting it in the tranny, then a controlled study of different bikes with Syn3 usage is really in dire need. Then maybe some qualatative evidence could be presented as a testiment to this fluid not being suitable for the transmissions, which would save alot of buck the whole way around.

G

badluck1 · 09-12-2004, 02:06 PM

What about Royal Purple? I only hear good things about them but have never used it. Anyone have thoughts about 'em.

george douglas · 09-12-2004, 06:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Firepower

I agree with this as well. In most cases different fluids with different characteristics (EP agents, anti-wear, etc.) are needed for different areas, because the wear/pressures/stresses are different as well as the lubrication regime (boundary, hydro-dynamic, ELH). But there are some fluids (not saying that this is one of them) that will do the job in all 3, but they are costly as hell.
If the word is that the SYN3 is not cutting it in the tranny, then a controlled study of different bikes with Syn3 usage is really in dire need. Then maybe some qualatative evidence could be presented as a testiment to this fluid not being suitable for the transmissions, which would save alot of buck the whole way around.

G

I will post the results of an oil analysis on my tranny using the Amsoil 20w 50 after I get about another thousand miles on it. I will also be looking for one of my local customers who is using our 75W 90 and see what it's oil report looks like for comparisons. I have another biker that is using our 20w 50 in his tranny and I will get a sample of his fluid also. In about a month I should have the necessary data to share. I will share it no matter what the data says. I am not a politician seeking office.