The nitty-gritty of SYN3

[george douglas]

Originally Posted by Seahag

I've been in the local auto parts store many times and played with the "Luca Oil" additive display. It seems to really cling better to the moving parts leaving a thicker protective layer. Now I haven't been able to determine if their product is a synthetic or not...but I wonder if anyone here has an opinion on whether or not this would be beneficial in a motor that is already running synthetic? I've used Mobil 1 and Amsoil products since I finished my breakins and change oil every 7500 miles with filter changes at 3800 miles...when I rebuilt my motor this winter at 24000 miles to put in a big bore...the cyllinders looked brand new and there was no varnish or gummy buildup anywhere...I'm sold on SYN

I try to stay neutral on oil additives, but if you are using an oil that needs an additive then may be you are using the wrong oil. The oils that you have been using certainly don't need any help. One of the biggest risk when adding an additive to an oil is possibly upsetting the additive chemistry and causing a problem and the other downside is making your wallet thinner. Of all the additives that I have come across the Lucas oil additives do have a good reputation and could help in some instances like in heavy duty trucking. You have to keep in mind that there is no industry regulations that oil additive companies have to be accountable to so they can put anything they want to in their soup.

[Ed Y]

Originally Posted by trooper113

Ed.......re: the 10W40......is that the MX4T you're talking about? I can't find a MTX oil listed.

Thanks.

T113

Yeah Trooper, that's it. My bad. Must have been a senior moment.

[trooper113]

Originally Posted by Ed Y

Yeah Trooper, that's it. My bad. Must have been a senior moment.

I live in senior moments. I blame it on the water. The water here also causes gray, thinning hair.

T113

[petelogan]

Originally Posted by trooper113

I live in senior moments. I blame it on the water. The water here also causes gray, thinning hair.

T113

Tha's strange. Round here it causes wobbly legs and lack of appetite.

Mus' be the additives

Pete

[Ed Y]

Originally Posted by trooper113

I live in senior moments. I blame it on the water. The water here also causes gray, thinning hair.

T113

That used to be my excuse when I lived in New Orleans. Now that I'm in the country in MS and using fairly decent deep artesian well water, I tend to blame it on excesses in my younger days. Hair is still pretty good although it and beard have the gray disease.

[The Specialist]

Originally Posted by VA V-Rod

I'll stick with Mobil 1 V-Twin motor oil, it's synthetic and I still think you can't do better than Mobil. I have also seen some debates regarding Amsoil, the tests are done by lab they own and they make the results look like they are from an independent lab. No guessing how they come out in their tests.

I still don't see any way a small firm could ever have the R&D money Mobil does. I changed mine over to V-Twin oil at 500 miles (8500 miles ago) and have already done the same to the wife 03 Low Rider.

Dave

Same here, I don't have the specs sheets in front of me but Mobil1 V-Twin beats all major full synthetics.
Amount of synthetic stock used is the highest.
Boil point is the highest.
Cold pour is the lowest.
And if this means anything Corvettes and Boxters leave the factory new with Mobil1.
I use Mobil1 in the motor and primary.
The tranny get's Goldon spectro tranny fluid for big twins.
I believe it is a 75-140. (At $16.00 a quart )!
It is a full synthetic in exorcist green color.
As far as change intervals go if it were a perfect world with nothing spilling off into the oil. ( gas, dirt, pollut, etc ) Synthetic would out last.
But once you pick up those contaminates the game is over with any oil.

[george douglas]

Originally Posted by The Specialist

Same here, I don't have the specs sheets in front of me but Mobil1 V-Twin beats all major full synthetics.
Amount of synthetic stock used is the highest.
Boil point is the highest.
Cold pour is the lowest.
And if this means anything Corvettes and Boxters leave the factory new with Mobil1.
I use Mobil1 in the motor and primary.
The tranny get's Goldon spectro tranny fluid for big twins.
I believe it is a 75-140. (At $16.00 a quart )!
It is a full synthetic in exorcist green color.
As far as change intervals go if it were a perfect world with nothing spilling off into the oil. ( gas, dirt, pollut, etc ) Synthetic would out last.
But once you pick up those contaminates the game is over with any oil.

You sound pretty strong on Mobil. I would also use it if I didn't feel that Amsoil was better. Why are you using such a heavy oil for your tranny? I use 20w 50 in mine and before I switched to the motor oil I used the 75W 90 gearlube.

[99DWG]

Nothing wrong with Amsoil, use it in my Dodge Cummins. But in the bike I went with Mobil 1 20/50 in all 3 holes. Just seems easier to get my hands on Mobil 1 instead of Amsoil. Oil is oil probably, but I don't like mixing brands and if caught out somewhere needing some, could go to wally world or autozone to replenish the Mobil1. Amsoil, Great product though.

[Seahag]

It looks like Amsoil might be making some moves to make it more accessible. Last time I was at a "Mill's Fleet & Farm Supply" they had the full line up of Amsoil products...including the cycle oil. Only problem with that is, that store is a 45 minute drive (one way) from where I live...and some of you may not have that store around at all. Just keep an eye out though; Amsoil may be coming to a store near you.

[fauskar]

Originally Posted by The Specialist

... And if this means anything Corvettes and Boxters leave the factory new with Mobil1...

Ya, like these companies have to pay for the Mobile 1 used in these vehicles. With the advertising they get from these marquee names they give the oil away as "cost of sales". This is not a valid defense to me why Mobile 1 is better than the others.

[Firepower]

Originally Posted by doyall

Component
CAS #
Concentration

(1) 1-Decene Homopolymer, hydrogenated
68037-01-4
50% - 70%

(2) Proprietary Ingredients
Proprietary Mixture
1% - 10%

(3) Polyisobutylene
9003-27-4
1% - 10%

(4) Distillates, Petroleum, Hydrotreated Heavy Paraffinic
64742-54-7
0% - 20%

(5) Distillates, Petroleum, Solvent-Refined Heavy Paraffinic
64741-88-4
0% - 20%

(6) Zinc Alkyldithiophosphate
68649-42-3
0% - 2%

1. Synthetic Hydrocarbon - Alpha Olefin polymer
(Ironically, all SHC's are made from petroleum feedstocks but are technically synthesized from their original cracked composites)

2. Additives
After running an infra-red analysis on out Nicolet Impact 410, we noticed, what appeared to be a holgenated ester (or a mild halogen, more than likely a chlorinated or brominated hydrocarbon, with definate signs of a light ester oil). The halogen seemd to be in a 2-4% by weight addition and the ester was definately under 10% (probably near 5-6%).

3. This is a high-end polymer and is the primary constituent of STP. It's used as a viscosity improver/modifier.

4. Blending oil with desired viscosity and characteristics.

5. Ditto.
Most all oils are blends, in order to achieve a desired and somewhat stable oil viscosity at varying temperatures.

6. ZDDP (Its really "Zinc Di-alkyl di-thio phosphate") - This is also found in every motor oil and is used as an anti-scuff/anti-wear additive as well as an oxidation inhibitor.

So what's it mean?
1. It's a true semi-synthetic, as #1 and #3 are full synthetic hydrocarbons and #4 and #5 are Dino-oils (paraffinic base blends). It also makes it compatible with SHC's and Dino oils, alike (in case you have to add either between oil changes).

2. Contains more advanced additive chemistries than most other motor oils, as the Halocarbons are EP (extreme pressure) additives, and fight against ploughing of the metal under boundary conditions. This means it REALLY fights wear better than many other motor oils.
Take it to the bank....the oil companies cater to the demands of the OEMs, especially in the "Big Three", and the last thing an OEM wants, is the oil to make the parts last longer. It's called "planned obsolesence", and for most OEMs, parts replacement is 80% of their cash-flow income. If you affect that (positively), you just ate into the OEM profit and that pisses them off.
Oil companies do NOT set the standards...SAE does, and guess who they are made up of?....you got it....the OEM engineers and upper echelon. (Yes, I'm a 14 year member of SAE, but have no control over the standards or politics there...thank you, Jesus.)
MoCo is indeed a bit different, and knows that the only way to keep those V-Twins stroking under the enormous internal pressures and block-wide stress, is to increase the additive chemistry and include the stuff that others despise. **** still breaks down, but at a lesser rate than if it wasn't there.

Ask George D., he'll tell you the same about the Amsoil, except they go a bit further in providing a full synthetic HC and bump the EP and AW additives up even more, to give a higher end protection under higher thermal stress.

If you want some more techno-info on the like, go here:
http://www.fp10.com/techinfo.html

HTH,

G

[Falcon20]

I have been running HD syn. I tried the Amsoil 20-50 AMV in my primary. It shifts noticeably better. I will be putting it in my engine this weekend.

[FXR2]

Here's a post from the HD-CVO board about oil analysis on syn3 after being used in all three holes. Lookls like it might not be so good for the transmission.

http://flhrsei.org/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB...num=1090596538

[george douglas]

Originally Posted by FXR2

Here's a post from the HD-CVO board about oil analysis on syn3 after being used in all three holes. Lookls like it might not be so good for the transmission.

http://flhrsei.org/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB...num=1090596538

Guys, Don't read to much in to reports like this, as they could be an aberration. Unless you take several vehicles at a time and run them through exact field regimes with the same product then you can begin to draw conclusions. I am not trying to defend Harley, but any company before they recommend a change is going to do a tremendous amount of testing before they are going to encourage you to put 20w 50 oil in their tranny's for example. I plan to do an oil analysis on my tranny later this year, but my results won't mean yours will be the same. I have another biker putting miles on his tranny with 20w 50 in it so we can do some comparisons, but that is all we are doing, comparing. I will also do a few with gear lube just to get an idea. When I get this data I will share it on this forum.

[FXR2]

Originally Posted by george douglas

I am not trying to defend Harley, but any company before they recommend a change is going to do a tremendous amount of testing before they are going to encourage you to put 20w 50 oil in their tranny's for example.

I think what they would do first is an intensive market study to see how much money they could make be offering a synthetic oil product.

It (the test) was of interest to me because I switched to syn3 in all 3 holes earlier this year and a few weeks ago, during a full day trip when the high was 97, my transmission seemed to be shifting "sloppy" (for lack of a better term). I drained it and put in Amsoil 75w80 but I haven't had Amsoil in it long enough to encounter similar enough circumstances to make a progress statement yet.

Call my cynical but it wouldn't surprise me to learn that Harley themselves had doubts about syn3 but "prescribed" it for use anyway. HD probably figured out the market they were missing by not having a synthetic oil so they went out to capture it. Previously, the HD owner was told to buy three different HD lubricants. It strikes me as a simple marketing move to label the new single product suitable for all three places. Selling syn3 at the increased price over the three previous offerings at a lower price is maximized this way--sell as much as you can of one product for more money, instead of three products for less. Meanwhile, if they know that it shortens transmission life by, say, half, the bikes will still be well out of warranty before anything happens so most of those owners will go right back to HD for a what, $3000 transmission. More new business for the MoCo. And everybody will say "they don't make them like they used to", and pay the bill.

HD is in the business of selling goods and services, not making sure that those goods and services last forever. Sure, they don't want their stuff blowing up in the parking lot, but wearing out in 30,000 miles instead of 60,000 miles or more would probably make a lot more money for them--short term anyway.

Understand, I like Harley but I also know that it's a business to make money. From the time I bought it, I became interested in making my bike last longer--an interest not shared by Harley. Nothing personal--just business.

I'm anxious to see how Amsoil in the transmission feels after a long, hot day on the road. I may switch to Amsoil products all around or start shopping again. Mobil, or Redline, maybe.