The nitty-gritty of SYN3

[woodwalkertc88]

i understood the syn 3 to be a blend too , and i used it for 3 or 4 oil changes thinking it might be the best of both worlds , i used dino in previous bike,after following this forum for 1 and 1/2 years ive read em all,however ........i just made a trip of over 3000 miles with a guy with over 70k on his bike ,untouched !!! he never added a drop of oil ,all the while bragging on mobil 1 ,,,when i came time to change oil on the trip , no harley shop in 150 miles and there was an auto zone next door to motel , so off to the dollar store for foil turkey basting pan and i was bamboozled into MOBIL 1 !!!! damn i think i hear crank shaft bearings vibrating !!!!

[Ed Y]

Rick:

Just for your info and I don't have all the facts but this is what I remember. Some years ago, don't remember exact one, Mobil sued Castro over the fact that Castrol was marketing an oil advertised as synthetic. Up to this point, I believe, the only synthetic oils on the market were full synthetic. The courts decided that as long as the oil was more than X % synthetic but not 100% synthetic, it was OK to call it synthetic.

The MSDS that doyall put in the first post is the only true indication of what's what. You're right though, it is a never ending subject with opinions about as numerous as ................... As far as I'm concerned, any synthetic (regardless of %) provides more heat protection than regular dino oil. I've pulled cylinders on Evo's with over 100,000 miles using HD 360 oil and still see the crosshatching on the cylinder walls so there's no argument that dino oil works but it still doesn't provide the heat protection and kling properties than synthetic does.

[petelogan]

Has anyone any experience with Castrol RS, a full race synthetic ?

I run it in a 30 year old inline 6 Ford engine, and it appears to work fine (10,000 miles), but then, I guess I would only really know if it didn't work

The other question I have, again based on cage engines, is I have heard that older engines and American engines in particular like to have more detergents in them. Odd as it may sound, the recommendation that follows this is to use a full synthetic, heavy duty, diesel oil. Again, I'm running this in a Rover V8 (Buick 215) with no problems so far (20,000 miles).

As far as gearboxes go, I can tell you that successive generations of Land Rover gearboxes ran 80W90, 20W50 and lately ATF. These are manual gearboxes, basically all the same, except that they added heavier synchro and another gear into the same basic casing. The lighter oils allowed more components to be crammed in while maintaining shift smoothness (such as it is )

Right now I'm running the HD oil for each hole on the shovel, but after all I've read, and bearing in mind car experience, I think the next change will be to Mobil 1, Castrol RS, or a heavy duty synthetic diesel oil.

Comments ?

Pete

PS: Syn3 is what we would call over here a semi-synthetic (ie a blend of synth and dino)

[rickr01]

Well once again all the great oil debate. I thank everyone for their opinions and thoughts. I noticed a thread by George The Amsoil guy, but did not track which forum it was in, stating that Amsoil itself had Syn 3 Tested and it was a good oil. I believe it said it was a full synthetic as well but I guess that is another debate. Iv'e run the Motor Companies oil in all my Harleys Thats been a quite a few and never had a mechanical engine transmission or chain case failure. Not even a lifter...I also don't lug or over rev my engines. I enjoy riding not racing them.

[george douglas]

Originally Posted by rickr01

Can somone in the know and unbiased tell me what is suppose to be wrong with SYN 3. Is there really nothing and everyone is just irked off because Harley has changed their toon?? Syn 3 has to be at least better then the dino I was running???
How about some concrete answers. All this oil data is ok if your a chemical engineer. I just want to know if it is a decent oil, and if it's better then dino. George how about an unbiased direct answer on that question not on which brand is better Amsoil or Harley.

According to Amsoil after they tested Harleys new syn 3 they reported it to be a very good full synthetic oil made by a reputable oil relabeler. Back in Feb 2003 there was many post on this subject so you might want to do a search for it. I had copied their press release on it and also what Amsoil had to say about it. If I didn't use Amsoil, Mobil would be my next choice followed by Syn3.

Keep in mind that most full synthetics on the market today are actually 100% petroelum oils that have undergone a hydro-cracking process to remove more impurities from the oil and they are allowed to call this dino oil full synthetic. They are all good oils, but don't quite measure up to the chemical based 100% pure synthetics.

[trooper113]

Well.....there I go being wrong. I recalled Syn 3 being discussed as a semi-syn. Perhaps it's a hydrocracked syn.....not that it matters at all.

T113

[FLSTFI Dave]

Syn 3 has a significant amount of group II base stock in it. The same base stock used in the regular HD 360 motor oil. Group I and group II are not synthetics, they are pure dino oil.

Only group IV and group V base stocks are synthetics.

Harley is 100% leagle in their advertisement of the syn 3. Mobil sued over this several years back and lost. Mobil wanted it to have to be 100% synthetic as that is what mobil one is.

The only way to know what is in an oil is to get the MSDS sheet for it. Read them and you will be very surprized. HD 360 and syn 3 are closer to the same than syn 3 is to mobil one. In other words syn 3 is as close to a dino as it is to a synthetic.

If I am going to spent the money for a synthetic, it will not be a blend. I use Amsoil in my diesel truck, and have since new. Truck has 97,000 miles on it. Last truck used mobil 1. Next oil change bike gets amsoil.

[petelogan]

Originally Posted by trooper113

Well.....there I go being wrong. I recalled Syn 3 being discussed as a semi-syn. Perhaps it's a hydrocracked syn.....not that it matters at all.

T113

It looks like there is a difference in allowed terminology between US and Europe. Here, an oil described as 'synthetic' has to be 'full synthetic', is described as such, and is definitely not compatible with dino. A 'semi-synthetic' has a mix of synthetic and dino and either type can be added as a top up, though it's not recommended to be too cavalier with mixing.

Rocky Mountain HD has a FAQ on Syn3 here:

http://www.rmh-d.com/parts/syn3_faq.php

From this couple quotes, I'm guessing Syn3 would have to be called a 'semi-synthetic' in Europe:

Q. If I'm on the road and realize I need to add a quart of engine oil, and SYN3 is not available, what should I use?

A. If SYN3 is not available and addition of motor oil is required, the first choice would be to add HD360 SAE 20W50 to the SYN3 for engine lubrication. Although HD360 oil is compatible with SYN3, we suggest the mixture of the fluids be changed as soon as possible. If HD360 is not available, the second choice would be to add an acceptable diesel engine oil as listed in the Owner's Manual, and, again, we suggest that the mixture of fluids be changed as soon as possible. Do not add diesel engine oil to the primary chain case or transmission.

Q. Can a quart of oil be added to the primary chain case or transmission if SYN3 is not available?

A. If SYN3 is not available and addition of lubricant to the primary chain case (Evolution 1340 and Twin Cam 88 models) is required, the first choice would be to add H-D Primary Chain Case Lubricant (part #99887-84). Although H-D Primary Chain Case Lubricant is compatible with SYN3, we suggest the mixture of the fluids be changed as soon as possible.

If SYN3 is not available and addition of lubricant to the primary chain case and transmission for Evolution XL and Buell models is required, the first choice would be to add H-D Sport-Trans Fluid (part #99896-88). Although H-D Sport-Trans Fluid is compatible with SYN3, we suggest the mixture of the fluids be changed as soon as possible.

If SYN3 is not available and addition of lubricant to the transmission (Evolution 1340 and Twin Cam 88 models) is required, do not add H-D Semi-Synthetic Transmission Lubricant as the two lubricants are not compatible.

Effectively, they seem to be saying if you must top up Syn3, then use dino.

I'm still confused

Pete

[degadave]

My 2 cents....... Like everyone else, I heard and read all kinds of "information" on syn vs. dino for my new FXSTI. Dealer (old dealer) even told me anything else but Syn-3 would void warranty, which I know is BS. I wanted what I believed was the best for the HD I had waited for so long to own and was so damn proud of. During my 1000 miles before the 1st dealer service I consumed ever bit of info available from bikers, riders, forums, dealers, wrenches, vendors and the MoCo. When the 1k service came around, I had the dealer put the HD dino 20W50 back in knowing I would be switching to AMSOIL at 1500 miles.

I hooked up with our forum member George Douglas because of all the good PR he had received here. "I" have made the decision on AMSOIL, based on the BS from HD and dealer, the over-priced "semi-syn" Syn-3 oil but more importantly, what "I" believe to be the best "motor oil" available. I have 2000 miles on "Sweet T" today. She is a little quieter, shifts a lot better, runs about 30 degrees cooler and life is good! George will treat you right, no BS, delivers quick, believes in his product and has a genuine concern for his customers. I do not doubt that Mobile and Redline are also good oils, "I" chose AMSOIL and am happy.......make "your" decision and riiiiiiiiiide!!!!

Dega

[petelogan]

Wish we could get it in Europe, but I've never seen it here.

Pete

[Badapple]

I am confused now...did the test recommend same oil in all three holes or heavier in tranny and primary. It looked like Mobil Super syn 15-50 was best in the engine but not good for the primary and to light for the transmission. I think I am going to go to Mobil but which one and where?

[Ed Y]

One option: use M1 15W50 in the engine, M1 10W40 MTX in the primary and M1 75W90 gear oil in the trans.

[trooper113]

Originally Posted by Ed Y

One option: use M1 15W50 in the engine, M1 10W40 MTX in the primary and M1 75W90 gear oil in the trans.

Ed.......re: the 10W40......is that the MX4T you're talking about? I can't find a MTX oil listed.

Thanks.

T113

[george douglas]

Originally Posted by petelogan

It looks like there is a difference in allowed terminology between US and Europe. Here, an oil described as 'synthetic' has to be 'full synthetic', is described as such, and is definitely not compatible with dino. A 'semi-synthetic' has a mix of synthetic and dino and either type can be added as a top up, though it's not recommended to be too cavalier with mixing.

Rocky Mountain HD has a FAQ on Syn3 here:

http://www.rmh-d.com/parts/syn3_faq.php

From this couple quotes, I'm guessing Syn3 would have to be called a 'semi-synthetic' in Europe:



Effectively, they seem to be saying if you must top up Syn3, then use dino.

I'm still confused

Pete

Don't read to much into the verbage that Harley puts out. They are masters of confusion to place doubt so the customer will keep buying their after market stuff. A couple of good examples are the 10 micron oil filter. Well I don't know of any oil filter on the market that won't filter down to 10 microns 50% of the time like Harleys. Harley rates their filters at 10 micron nominal, which means it will only catch 10 micron contaminants 50% of the time. The best way to rate filters is through efficiency and capacity like most oil filter companies do today.

The second example is to use diesel oil if you can't find Harley oil to either top off or for a change until you can get their stuff back in the crankcase. They know that most bikers won't put a diesel oil in their bike, although most motorcycle oils meet that diesel designation. Again confuse and conquer.

To keep things real simple remember if you use Amsoil or Harley syn3 put it in all three holes unless you are not comfortable with using it in the tranny, then use the 75w 90 gearlube. Otherwise use 20w 50 in the crankcase, 10w 40 in the primary, and gearlube in the tranny.

Also remember that nearly every oil can be mixed if necessary. It doesn't matter if it is synthetic or dino. The base of the product isn't quite as important as the additive package of the oil when mixing oils. Of course it is best not to mix oils so you don't take that chance of upsetting the chemistry of the additive package.

[Seahag]

I've been in the local auto parts store many times and played with the "Luca Oil" additive display. It seems to really cling better to the moving parts leaving a thicker protective layer. Now I haven't been able to determine if their product is a synthetic or not...but I wonder if anyone here has an opinion on whether or not this would be beneficial in a motor that is already running synthetic? I've used Mobil 1 and Amsoil products since I finished my breakins and change oil every 7500 miles with filter changes at 3800 miles...when I rebuilt my motor this winter at 24000 miles to put in a big bore...the cyllinders looked brand new and there was no varnish or gummy buildup anywhere...I'm sold on SYN