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Counter Balanced Engine

40K views 71 replies 35 participants last post by  Thermodyne 
#1 ·
Anybody ever wonder why Harley doesn't put the counter balanced engine in the touring models. I like my Heritage at a redlight much better than my new bagger.
 
#3 ·
05 Heritage traded for an 07 Road King. Loved everything about the Heritage, everything, except the high frequency vibration that you finally notice about 3 hours into a tour. That became very tiring on long trips. Well, that and the 5 speed transmission. Both of these were problems mostly only on the interstates.
 
#4 ·
The reason for the counter balancing is because they are hard mounted. The other models have rubber mounts, and the engine smoothes out with some RPM.
 
#6 ·
To get a v-twin to run smooth, you have to balance the crank so that it will run smooth at a certain RPM range. Hard mounted motors are smooth at idle and not really smooth at cruising. When the motor gets rubber mounted, you can set it to be smooth at cruise, but it jumps around at idle.
 
#7 ·
Hard mounted motors are smooth at idle and not really smooth at cruising.

Allow me to quibble, mine is vibration-less.

:yes:

Al
 
#15 ·
The reason The Moco didn't rubber mount the B motor in the Softail was because they couldn't keep "the look" with the rubber mount system, because you need extra clearance between the motor & the frame to allow for movement. They wanted the motor to be "tight" looking within the frame, without too much clearance. Makes for a better "chopper" look.
 
#9 ·
rolling thunder chassis makes a bagger frame designed fo the b motor for those of you ready to really get custom!!
 
#11 ·
My Screamin Eagle Road King was ideling at a friends shop the other day.
A guy and his younger son came in to fill a tire with air, when the son says to me why does your bike vibrate so much. Before I could reply the father said boy thats not vibrating, it's breathing. Couldnt have explained it better
 
#13 ·
My 96b with 6 speed is smooth as glass from idle to 85 ish. Never been faster on it as I see no reason. 7700 miles total and 850 miles last weekend and have never noticed any vibration at any speed for any reason. Some like shakers and some don't. That's why we are given choices. One good thing about the rubber mounted engines is ya get to check every bolt on the bike more often as it slips my mind most times cause everything isn't shakin all the time.
 
#14 ·
I can only guess that they don't use the "B" motor across all lines (except v-rod) because of the traditionalists wanting the Harley vibration. If they were to use the "B" motor on the touring bikes they could solid mount the motor, use it as a structural part of the frame which would allow them the lighten up the very heavy frame they currently use. The touring models also offer better stopping power due to their dual rotor front brake setup and this could cause havoc with the counter balance system if the rear wheel is locked up without the clutch engaged, but this is all just speculation on my part :beer:
 
#16 ·
I'm in the "glad they didn't" category. They idle nice and smooth but after 2 hours or so the buzzing feeling gets annoying. They definitely have a different feeling to them after a long ride. My Road King sure does like to "dance" at idle but after a full days ride I don't have that buzzing feeling in my body like the balanced engines. To each their own, I suppose.
 
#17 ·
I love the fact that my EG is smooth as glass on the highway. I have done 12 hours days and there simply is no fatigue from vibration. But, I think the initial point of this thread is "why not rubber mount the "B" so that it is smooth all the time"? I agree. I can't honestly say that the shaking is preferable. However, if I have to choose between shake at idle and buzz on the highway, give me the shake!

I think the MoCo has a tremendous opportunity to serve the traditionalists and some newer buyers and still be Harley. They truly have an understanding of the sport that nobody else has and with moves like the VROD and Buell they are in great shape. That being said, they have to realize that there are many, many people that would never consider a touring bike that shakes like that.
 
#18 ·
I am realizing that I am in that category after having just bought an 09 Ultra. I have a 2000 Heritage that I love dearly and I find it smooth as silk up to as fast as I am willing to ride. For me, the difference in the ride is just the suspension system of the Ultra. I think Harley would have a big, big winner if they made a Ultra B. I would trade my new shake and bake model in a heartbeat.
 
#20 ·
It started out as a 88 but I had the engine punched, bigger cam and added a Mikuni carb. It produces around 90 h.p. I really like this bike but after buying the Ultra I like the Heritage even better. My biggest complaint on the Ultra is the 6 speed trans, which I think is just plain bad. As nice as the ultra rides on the highway it just seems to me that when you get to a redlight the counter balanced engine would be nice for the touring scene.
 
#21 ·
I know you have a softail with a b motor I was just wondering what the other guy's that think they buzz have and that they should get them checked out. Or maybe you me and the few others that have replied that have the b motors have special ones. lol I personally like the 6 speed but it's in the deuce and not an ultra. The lower weight probably helps but 6th is not needed (even on the deuce) till minimum of 65mph but will run 80+ all day long and be silky smoooth while doin it.
 
#28 ·
Just to be clear I have no problems with the traditional v-twin. Yes I am very happy with my ride and would be just as happy with a road king or an ultra. Two different animals sharing the same name-plate. But both are pure harley. Both are/will be icon's Just stating a fact not all b engines are buzzy even after 5+ hrs in the saddle. Been there done that and will do it again. Remeber there are still haters of the twin cam as it's not a real harley. Or the evo is not a shovel or the shovels not a pan. Remember we're all in this together, I'm pullin for ya.
 
#34 ·
Remember we're all in this together, I'm pullin for ya.
LOL. I like the Red Green reference.

I think some of this is a bit of "the grass is always greener". The A motor guys want less vibration at idle and the B motor guys want less vib at highway speed. (Not to mention the faster spin-up and higher rev limits of the A motors.) I got nearly 47k on my softy. And it's as smooth as a dream (compared to my old '95 Sporty). :hystria:

-- gr8whyt
 
#30 ·
OK..I'm no expert...but I don't believe that the "B" engines can safely rev as high as the .."non B"? I thought I heard from a mechanic that the Counter Balance System has a problem at revs over 6K.

(Like it might self destruct...or something similar.)

Just sayin'...I have a rubber mount and will probably never have this problem. (read...never have a softie).

Greg...
 
#31 ·
I think the answer to the debate is in the frame and forks

Look at the difference between the fork and tree setup between the two. The Touring line has the the fork tubes set behind the neck of the frame. The Softails are set up in a more traditional style of fork tubes in front of the neck.

Now, the difference it makes from the distance from the front fender tip to the frame on a touring bike is fairly close due to the "backwards" tree. IF HD tried to squeeze a B motor in there, then the fender would slam into the protruding balancer.

So why did Wizards of HD paint themselves in a corner? Supposedly the Touring bikes are some of the best handling bikes in the Motor Cop courses. HD wanted the shopping cart set up to make the bikes "feel" nimble. Reality is that a touring bike is meant to be ridden distance not in and out of cones.

I would venture to say that B motor in a frame like the touring frames would be AWESOME; just as long as long the swingarm is tied to the frame as it should be. I like being able to adjust shocks on the touring bike in a quick easy way, so a similiar swingarm setup would be nice.



Just some thoughts.
 
#36 ·
Maybe there is a little difference between the B motors but having both in the garage I will agree that the Ultra rides a little better down the highway but not because of vibration. Its the suspension. I don't know how I would measure this other than going 70 mph down the same road but I will put "my" Heritage up against "my" Ultra any day of the week as far as vibration. The real question would be if Harley offered the option of an A or B engine in the touring models, how many people would choose the A over the B engine. The other minor issue is EFI over carbs. I personally would take the carb over the EFI, again making this choice based on the comparison between my 00 Heritage and my 09 Ultra.
 
#38 ·
Comfort levels on a Harley can be measured al different levels.Persoanally I build my own machines because I crave high performance,and need the raw hp and the ability to do quick adjustments if needed on the highway.On the opposite end of the spectrum there are riders who just want to climb on hit the button ride with no thoughts of mechanical issues.Then there are those in between.Thankfully there are a lot of options and all of which are easy to achieve.
 
#42 ·
Look at the H-D website. It lists the touring bikes as having 92.6 pounds of torque @ 3500 rpm. The Dyna's are listed as 92 pounds of torque @ 3000 rpm and the Softail's are listed as 87.9 pounds of torque @ 2750 rpm.

I don't mind (in fact enjoy) a little vibration at idle to tweak out a little more torque in a touring bike.
 
#41 ·
The point of the counter balanced engine in the touring models would be to derive the benifit of less vibration. You would want them to mount the B engine just like they rubber mount the A engine. In other words, if the A engine works well by rubber mounting it then the B engine should be amazing mounted the same way. I am still puzzled that Harley has not done this since they developed the B engine for a reason and that was vibration. Cars have been mounting engines this way since the model T.
 
#50 ·
The point of using the "B" motor is to take advantage of ALL the benefits the "B" can offer, not just a partial amount. A major benefit would be that it can be solid mounted and used as a structural frame component. Not using it in that fashion would be short sighted imo.
 
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