BRAKE FLUID ISSUE...Please Read

[taweste]

I stopped at a harley dealer one day because I needed primary oil and brake fluid. I did not know what type of brake fluid I needed so I asked the worker at the parts counter. She called someone for help, and after a short discussion she told me that I would need DOT4 brake fluid.

I blead the brakes using the DOT4 brake fluid and went on vaca for about 1 1/2 weeks. I took the bike out when I got home and my brakes locked up (the rear brakes, the rear was the system I used the fluid in). The brakes caught on fire, and upon closer inspection the seals were practicaly non-existent.

I brought the caliper to a different harley dealer, looking for a rebuild kit and to try and figure out what could have caused the problem, and they mentioned that the caliper smelled like DOT4 fluid. They asked if I had used DOT4 fluid and I told them that I had used the fluid the other dealer had given to me (at that time I wasnt sure if it was DOT4 that they had sold me). They said that under no circumstances should a harley dealer have given me DOT4 fluid for an 86' softail. The whole shop was quite surprised that they had sold me DOT4. They stated that I could attempt to THOUROUGHLY clean the system, but the best thing to do would be to replace the rear brake system.

The next day I went back to the dealership that sold me the DOT4, and I told the parts manager what had happened. He immediately aplogized and stated that they would replace all the parts necessary to ensure the bike is safe. He also apologized stating that they were happy that no one was injured. He wanted to order a new master cylinder, but I was not sure of the manufacturer on my bike (it was aftermarket). I told him I would return the next morning with the manufacturer. He then suggested that the dealer could come pick up my bike to ensure all the work was done properly. I took him up on his offer and arranged pick-up.

After they had my bike for about 24hrs the servoce manager called and stated that there was no way DOT4 brake fluid would cause a problem with my bike. I spoke to the store manager and he stated the same, that besides the fact that DOT4 and DOT5 seperate when combined together, it would not cause any serious problems.

One dealer is lying to me, and/or is very ignorant when it comes to brake fluid. Can anyone tell me who is correct? Is it OK to mix DOT4 and DOT5 brake fluid (as the dealer who sold me the DOT4 fluid told me)? Or, is putting DOT4 fluid in an 86' softail VERY dangerous, as the other dealer told me?

Lastly, will a thorough cleaning with a rebuild be sufficient or do I need to relpace the entire system?

Thanks for Reading
Tim

[luvstoride]

I am certainly no expert in this department, but I will tell you what I have learned over the last few months doing research on this very subject. DOT3 and DOT4 can be mixed, but DOT3, and DOT4 CANNOT be mixed with DOT5. DOT3 and 4 are essentially the same, with 4 having extra additives to "trap" moisture. DOT5 is a totally different animal. Would this cause you're failure? I can't say, but if you mixed DOT5 with DOT4, I suspect it did.

[ViennaHog]

a mix of DO4 and silicone based DOT 5 will gum up everything in the system. ALL rubber parts must be replaced and the everything else needs a thorough cleaning with brake cleaner.
This is dangerous.

[Shoe]

Tim,

It should have been easy to tell when you opened the master cylinder. DOT 5 brake fluid is Blue (purple) in color where as DOT 3/4 is amber color (similar to the color of oil). Even if it wasnt printed on the top of your master cylinder, it is relatively easy to tell when you look at the fluid itself.

As far as mixing the two, they don't mix at all and normally form gummy deposits in the brake lines. I know that if you put DOT 5 in a DOT 3/4 system, it will eat the seals. I won't do the same thing if you were to put DOT 3/4 in a DOT 5 system, but it is still going to reek havok on the system by gumming it up.

Dave

[Buddy Seat]

Shoe-

You stated:
"It should have been easy to tell when you opened the master cylinder. DOT 5 brake fluid is Blue (purple) in color where as DOT 3/4 is amber color (similar to the color of oil)".

That is true for fresh Dot 5, however after a few years the Dot 5 blue/purple color turns to an amber, which is why I faithfully flush my Dot 5 systems every 5 yrs..

taweste-

You can NOT rely on HD counter people 100%, they are just hired help..
You need a good HD Service Manual & know what your machine needs before ya go to the stealerships for parts & etc...

This mixing IS dangerous. That's obvious by the damage that resulted.
You are lucky you didn't get hurt..
The stealership lying is the one that sold you the wrong fluid.. They know it & now just don't want to $$ pay to repair it..

[Shoe]

Originally Posted by Buddy Seat

Shoe-

You stated:
"It should have been easy to tell when you opened the master cylinder. DOT 5 brake fluid is Blue (purple) in color where as DOT 3/4 is amber color (similar to the color of oil)".

That is true for fresh Dot 5, however after a few years the Dot 5 blue/purple color turns to an amber, which is why I faithfully flush my Dot 5 systems every 5 yrs..

taweste-

You can NOT rely on HD counter people 100%, they are just hired help..
You need a good HD Service Manual & know what your machine needs before ya go to the stealerships for parts & etc...

This mixing IS dangerous. That's obvious by the damage that resulted.
You are lucky you didn't get hurt..
The stealership lying is the one that sold you the wrong fluid.. They know it & now just don't want to $$ pay to repair it..

Buddy,

I usually flush my systems every 2 years (3 if I'm lazy). I found that after 2+ years, the DOT 5 still retains its "blue" color. I have an 08 now, which is DOT 4, so its a moot point now anyway.

I should have been more specific, I apologize. If any brake fluid gets old it turns a dark brown/reddish brown color. I was figuring that the brake fluid was changed/flushed on regular intervals.

Also, for some reason I didnt see the original posters comment about an aftermarket master cylinder, which would explain why it didnt specify "DOT 5" on it.

Take care,
Dave

[cycopostie]

Originally Posted by Buddy Seat

Shoe-

You stated:
"It should have been easy to tell when you opened the master cylinder. DOT 5 brake fluid is Blue (purple) in color where as DOT 3/4 is amber color (similar to the color of oil)".

That is true for fresh Dot 5, however after a few years the Dot 5 blue/purple color turns to an amber, which is why I faithfully flush my Dot 5 systems every 5 yrs..

taweste-

You can NOT rely on HD counter people 100%, they are just hired help..
You need a good HD Service Manual & know what your machine needs before ya go to the stealerships for parts & etc...

This mixing IS dangerous. That's obvious by the damage that resulted.
You are lucky you didn't get hurt..
The stealership lying is the one that sold you the wrong fluid.. They know it & now just don't want to $$ pay to repair it..

I just recently picked up an 03 and the front m/c cover said Dot 4 It was amber colored. I was pretty sure Dot 4 wasn't used until 05 so I took some out and put it on a painted surface,paint was still there after a while so I knew it was a case of someone switching covers.It was 5yr old Dot5.
Unfortunately you can't depend on parts counter people, but they SHOULD know what they are selling,in your case a simple walk to the shop in back to ask a wrench what type fluid to use should have given them the right answer
There is no excuse for them to get it wrong,if they're that uninformed that Dot4 and Dot5 can't be mixed they shouldn't be there. The result could easily have been much worse,luckily it wasn't.
Yes, people should know what goes in their bikes but not all do, they rely on the people at the Dealership to sell them the right stuff, they(parts people)are the ones that really should know what fits what and what doesn't.
The ones that sold you the fluid are lying, they made a mistake that could have cost a life,you're very lucky it wasn't the front brake you put the fluid in
I would make them replace your complete braking system and take nothing less.
If there was nobody in that boutique that knew the difference (in front or out back),nobody should go to it ever.

[luvstoride]

Slightly off topic to the OP, but I have found that at my local stealer, I can get 5 different answers by asking 5 different people. I now rely only on the service manual.

[tazdevils610]

Originally Posted by cycopostie

I just recently picked up an 03 and the front m/c cover said Dot 4 It was amber colored. I was pretty sure Dot 4 wasn't used until 05 so I took some out and put it on a painted surface,paint was still there after a while so I knew it was a case of someone switching covers.It was 5yr old Dot5.
Unfortunately you can't depend on parts counter people, but they SHOULD know what they are selling,in your case a simple walk to the shop in back to ask a wrench what type fluid to use should have given them the right answer
There is no excuse for them to get it wrong,if they're that uninformed that Dot4 and Dot5 can't be mixed they shouldn't be there. The result could easily have been much worse,luckily it wasn't.
Yes, people should know what goes in their bikes but not all do, they rely on the people at the Dealership to sell them the right stuff, they(parts people)are the ones that really should know what fits what and what doesn't.
The ones that sold you the fluid are lying, they made a mistake that could have cost a life,you're very lucky it wasn't the front brake you put the fluid in
I would make them replace your complete braking system and take nothing less.
If there was nobody in that boutique that knew the difference (in front or out back),nobody should go to it ever.

I Have an 05 FXST/I it takes Dot 5 I believe dot 4 use started with the 07 bikes

[ChopperDude]

Originally Posted by tazdevils610

I Have an 05 FXST/I it takes Dot 5 I believe dot 4 use started with the 07 bikes

They did it in "stages".

The 05 touring bikes use DOT 4 (I have an 05 EG Classic that has DOT 4). It was a few years later they went to the softies and dynas, and now even the Sportster uses DOT5.

I understand the need for the touring bikes, as they can be purchased with ABS which requires DOT 4.

But none of the other bikes "need" it, and it causes NOTHING but problems in the sense that it STRIPS paint. Installing braided cables or chrome master cylinder can be a PAIN due to that... Not to mention if the top on the m/c is not fastened properly (with that rubber gasket, too tight or too loose can be equally prone to allowing a small leak), and there you go... messed up paint.

I've said it before... some of the decisions the Moco makes suck.

They used DOT 5 for decades with no problem, but they switched everything over to DOT 4 just because they had to for the touring bikes.

[ViennaHog]

Originally Posted by ChopperDude

They did it in "stages".

The 05 touring bikes use DOT 4 (I have an 05 EG Classic that has DOT 4). It was a few years later they went to the softies and dynas, and now even the Sportster uses DOT5.

I understand the need for the touring bikes, as they can be purchased with ABS which requires DOT 4.

But none of the other bikes "need" it, and it causes NOTHING but problems in the sense that it STRIPS paint. Installing braided cables or chrome master cylinder can be a PAIN due to that... Not to mention if the top on the m/c is not fastened properly (with that rubber gasket, too tight or too loose can be equally prone to allowing a small leak), and there you go... messed up paint.

I've said it before... some of the decisions the Moco makes suck.

They used DOT 5 for decades with no problem, but they switched everything over to DOT 4 just because they had to for the touring bikes.

Agree in principle, brake bleeding with DOT 4 however is much easier. Bleeding can be a PIA with DOT 5 in FLHT

[03GLIDE_]

Originally Posted by ViennaHog

Agree in principle, brake bleeding with DOT 4 however is much easier. Bleeding can be a PIA with DOT 5 in FLHT

I have the DOT 5 in my 04 and run the speed bleeders. They work great.

[Buddy Seat]

The problem as I see it with Dot 4 & Dot 3 is that they are hydroscopic.. Meaning they actually create moisture.. Which we all know creates that funky white crust & rust in the calipers & masters over time..
Sure regular flushing is a must do to help prevent this..
If a bike has ABS it has to have Dot 4, (as previously mentioned) but if not stick to Dot 5.

I think the Dot 5 is the ticket. iIt's fully synthetic & as such has none of those moisture or paint eating issues..

[taweste]

UPDATE

After doing some research and with the help of some forum members, I came to the conclusion that when DOT4 and DOT5 brkae fluid is mixed, some people say flushing the system will be fine, some say a rebuild with a flush is necessary, and other suggest replacing the entire brake system.

I told the store manager this and said that all they were willing to do is flush the system. I was fine with that as long as he put it in writing that the proper remedy for such a problem would be too flush the system. He adamantly refused to put ANYTHING in writing. I said would trust his professional opinion, but I just wanted his remedy in writing. He continued to refuse to put anything in writing, and said that instead "he knew what I was up to" and would replace my rear brake system. He still refused to put anything in writing. I ended the conversation, frustrated that he would not stand by his word, but happy that the brake system would be replaced therefore eleminating any possible problems in the future.

About a week later they called and said my bike was finished and that I would have to pick it up (its about an hour drive). They refused to deliver my bike back even though they suggested to pick it up in the beginning, which they did. I agreed, and was actually happy to drive it home since it was a nice day and I hadnt had my bike in awhile.

When I got to the dealership, I quickly realized that they had NOT replaced the brake system. They rebuilt the caliper and master cylinder, and replaced the line. I was handed a reciept which stated that they did not test ride the bike, and that the bike had numerous safety issues. I asked the gentleman at the service counter if it was standard procedure to not test ride bikes, and give a bike back to a customer which has "numerouse safety issues." I informed him that I would be back to speak with the store manager AGAIN.

At this point I am going to send a letter to the appropriate authorities, the BBO, and Harley Corporate. I am filing a suit against the store manager in his individual capacity, since he is the one who began the negligence, and ensured I was not treated properly (the parts manager was very helpful, and the store manager is blaming him for promising to fix my bike), for the money it would cost to replace the rest of the system. I would have been happy if he would have told me what he was going to do, and put it in writing, not lie to me.

I am extremely angry with the general manager, after his honest employee tried to remedy the situation he lied and gave me a bike with "numerous safety issues."

Here is the address to the dealership. STAY AWAY, THEY ARE NOT RELIABLE!!!

Sheldon's Harley Davidson
914 Southbridge Street
Auburn, MA 01501

508-721-9876
The store managers name is Ed. He is the one who is lying and causing problems.

Shayne is the parts manager, he was very helpful and is being portrayed as the bad guy by Ed.

Please feel free to call the store and speak to Ed and vouch for Shayne. I really hope they don't try to discipline him for any of this. He is a genuinely honest individual. Or just call to state that you will not be using their service.

Thanks for your time in reading this, my number is 774-364-0659, please call me if you have any suggestions, or if you have ever had any similar situations. I will do all I can to ensure they dont do this to anyone else.

Thanks
Tim

[ChopperDude]

Originally Posted by taweste

When I got to the dealership, I quickly realized that they had NOT replaced the brake system. They rebuilt the caliper and master cylinder, and replaced the line.

Hey man... I understand your frustration, but I think you're way off base here. Replacing the system is completely unneccessary... what they did is 100% acceptable.

I was a tech , and that process is the way to switch between systems, no need to replace EVERYTHING. You *do* want to replace the line (which they did), but rebuilding the caliper and m/c removes the parts which can be contaminated (the rubber parts and such). What is left over is all the METAL parts, and the metal parts aren't affected by the fluid, as long as they're cleaned. All it takes to clean them is a squirt (or two) of "brake clean", which is used very liberally in shops to clean oil, grease, etc. This cleans out the old fluid. Cleaning those parts adequately would take all of 3-4 minutes (maybe less?), and I can't see the tech doing a rebuild without doing that.

I have an 05 EG Classic, which came with that new DOT 4 (which I hate). I will sometime in the near future be retrofitting my system to DOT 5, and I will NOT be replacing anything except the line. I will just rebuild the m/c and calipers.

While it sounds like that dealership made LOTS of errors in the beginning... they (the Service Department) did a stand up job as far as making things right.

It certainly sounds like they have lost you as a customer... and I understand your viewpoint. Too many of these dealerships treat customers as "disposable", maybe because HD has flown so high these last 10 years. Maybe they've forgotten what it was like in the lean years? With the way the economy is going... they may get a reminder soon.