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Old 05-01-2009, 07:23 PM   #1 (permalink)
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113" s&s evo in FXR.

I am considering going from 88" S&S evo to 113" S&S evo. I need a
motor that will do everything , long rides , short rides 1up,2up etc.
I would greatly appreciate those with experience with this motor
to comment on reliability , performance , comfort. ( long rides )
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Old 05-01-2009, 08:01 PM   #2 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Will-Run View Post
I am considering going from 88" S&S evo to 113" S&S evo. I need a
motor that will do everything , long rides , short rides 1up,2up etc.
I would greatly appreciate those with experience with this motor
to comment on reliability , performance , comfort. ( long rides )
113 has a 4.5 inch stroke vs the 107 ci 4.25 inch stroke. So more piston speed and a little less piston skirt. Still, though a pretty good choice.

http://cart.rrcycles.com/index.php?m...roducts_id=195

If you have some extra cash and want something that performs a little better and LOOKS incredible, then click on the link. S&S lower end with R&R billet top end. I have a 107 sidewinder that i could not resist going billet on. I got a kit just for the upper end. The extra money buys an enourmous amount of eye candy, some extra performance with no decrease in reliability.

If you like to wind your hog out (not many do) like I do, then go with the shorter stroke 107. Otherwise a 113 should fit the bill nicely. It just starts getting interesting at these displacements.

I cannot say anything about vibration differences between any of the engines. Some of the builders here may will have more to say on that. My guess is that they are pretty close. 4.5 inches is not a radical stroke.

Just remember what comes along with more power:
1) Bigger clutch:Bandit , Pro clutch or other
2) Better brakes
3) Stabo , CCE bearings or other solutions to swing arm flex
4) Carlini arm depending on how bad your wrist is.
5) Suspension upgrades, a fork brace at a bare minimum
6) New exhaust with 2 inch primaries
7) Stronger sissy bar so you dont lose your passanger.
8) A good ticket lawyer who will follow you in a mini van

Last edited by 1M$man; 05-01-2009 at 08:05 PM.
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Old 05-01-2009, 08:01 PM   #3 (permalink)
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113 S&s

Welcome Will-Run...Have been considering a crate S&S 96" or 107" or a build. Have you priced out a 113" yet? Our dollar takes all the enthusiasm out of a swap like this. Where in B.C. are you?
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Old 05-01-2009, 09:22 PM   #4 (permalink)
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The 113" R&R - S&S combo is hard to beat. Good street manors, and full on beast power anytime you feel like twisting it!
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Old 05-01-2009, 09:59 PM   #5 (permalink)
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Thanks 1M$ Man. Hope I'm not messing this up,new to this post & reply stuff . Current
ride. 1990 FXR, 88" S&S evo, Branch #4 Heads 10:1 cr, wood 6H cam , V&H Pro Pipe,
Carlini TQ arm,S&S roller rockers. Upgraded everything,Brakes,Shocks,Forks etc.Owned
bike since new.Your comment about stroke,piston speed , piston skirt and winding it out
struck a chord. I was leaning toward 107" for that very reason. Thanks much for the
conformation.
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Old 05-01-2009, 10:31 PM   #6 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lucille View Post
Welcome Will-Run...Have been considering a crate S&S 96" or 107" or a build. Have you priced out a 113" yet? Our dollar takes all the enthusiasm out of a swap like this. Where in B.C. are you?
Hey lucille
I looked at 96" but heard about too much vibration with that stroke. I think the s&s 107t
is worth a look,4.25 stroke. I was just curious about the 113". I'm in Coquitlam.
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Old 05-02-2009, 06:51 AM   #7 (permalink)
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There's no piston skirt issues on an Evo based 113". A 113" is the holy grail combo for Evo's. It would turn a feather weight FXR into a land missile!
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Old 05-03-2009, 12:03 PM   #8 (permalink)
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The stroke is not really an issue. I run a 4 3/4 in arm in my 108. I have revved this motor up to and over 7 grand without any bottom end problems. If you want the torque, for riding on the highway with a passenger, then get the 113. I don't have any personal experience with the S&S motors, but I do know that they are pretty reliable, and will last if you maintain them. The only downside to longer strokes is shorter top-end life, and shorter sustained high RPM riding (buy a 6 speed OD tranny). Good luck.
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Old 05-03-2009, 07:59 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RattFXR View Post
The stroke is not really an issue. I run a 4 3/4 in arm in my 108. I have revved this motor up to and over 7 grand without any bottom end problems. If you want the torque, for riding on the highway with a passenger, then get the 113. I don't have any personal experience with the S&S motors, but I do know that they are pretty reliable, and will last if you maintain them. The only downside to longer strokes is shorter top-end life, and shorter sustained high RPM riding (buy a 6 speed OD tranny). Good luck.
Stroke CAN be an issue. Just in top end life and rings, not bottom end. Depends on how much and how long 7K is seen. When you get up around 4.75inches the rod angle can wear piston skirts.

My shovel is a 109 (4.75X3 13/16) STD cases, Axtell cylinders, Jims Big axel lifters and blocks, crane springs. We are finishing building the top end. We had the piston skirts (the JE's that came with the axtels) coated with a hard teflon and the tops in ceramic. I was told i would be wearing out the top end constantly by redlining at 7K.
Maybe yes, maybe no.

But I will be interested in comparing durability of rings/skirts, etc to my S&S 107 with only a 4,25 inch stroke that will also be redlining at 7K. We did buy the Jims semi solid hydraulic lifters for this. R&R is setting up spring pressures in their heads which will soon be on the 107.

I dont have the formula handy for piston speed, but it is dramatic at 7K in a 4.75 inch stroke. But thank God for synthetics and better metallurgy. I was and am willing to accept waht ever consequence to have a 7K redline in my stoker shovel. I'm sorry, there is no sound as sweet as a big hog at full boil of 7K or more. The engines are designed for lower RPM, but you can make big power with the right heads and cam by winding it out. I just happen to like the way it feels and sounds. It fits my riding style.

But based on Ratt's experience 4.5 inch stroke wound out to 7K may not be that bad. Go for the 113. No replacement for displacement.
I was not sure about piston skirt differences. There HAS to be some between the 107 and 113. These guys are saying it is not a significant difference. Most likely that is true.
.
Your rod angle should not be an issue at 4.5 inch stroke either.
I have been told rod angle IS an issue on longer strokes such as 4.75 where one side of the piston skirt can wear prematurely.
I will be able to give real world feedback on this when i put some hard miles on the 109inch shovel.

To the OP. You sound like you are ready to drop a 113 motor in and rock. But what about your clutch and starter?
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Old 05-03-2009, 09:33 PM   #10 (permalink)
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I have a 96" evo in my softail. I static balanced it and had Balance Masters machine the right flywheel for their active balancing mercury ring. This engine has 11.5 compression, lightweight carrillo rods and 32/70 final drive. Not as smooth as a twin cam softail but still smooth enough to to 8 hour rides and still howl at the moon all night. 96" evos aren't a bad choice. Eventually I pan to swap the cylinders for a set of Axtell 3 13/16" short stud cylinders like the ones in my FXR.

If you are currently riding an 88" evo, an easy upgrade is to 97" ( 4 1/4" stroke x 3 13/16" bore). I know several brothers that run this combo, seems to make very good horse power and with the stock evo stroke, the top end should last.
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Old 05-04-2009, 05:07 AM   #11 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by econnor View Post
I have a 96" evo in my softail. I static balanced it and had Balance Masters machine the right flywheel for their active balancing mercury ring. This engine has 11.5 compression, lightweight carrillo rods and 32/70 final drive. Not as smooth as a twin cam softail but still smooth enough to to 8 hour rides and still howl at the moon all night. 96" evos aren't a bad choice. Eventually I pan to swap the cylinders for a set of Axtell 3 13/16" short stud cylinders like the ones in my FXR.

If you are currently riding an 88" evo, an easy upgrade is to 97" ( 4 1/4" stroke x 3 13/16" bore). I know several brothers that run this combo, seems to make very good horse power and with the stock evo stroke, the top end should last.
glad to know the balance Masters actually works. i had that option installed in my T&O wheels for my 109 shovel project.
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Old 05-04-2009, 08:02 AM   #12 (permalink)
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1M$man, I have pretty much the same setup, but an Evo style. 4 3/4 by 3 13/16. Delkron cases, Axtell jugs, JE pistons, S&S heads ported by CycleRama, and an EV81 cam. The bike pulls like train, and when you do get up in the RPMs it pulls even harder and sounds AWOSOME! I don't know about the shovel style jugs, but mine are a little taller then stock so you can have a slightly longer skirt.

As far as the piston speed goes, I agree. That's why I have a overdrive tranny. Technically speaking, my redline should be just under 6000, to keep the piston speed at max beat. With good rods, and pistons, you can run the motor to higher speeds, you just can't sustain them for any amount of time, unless you want to rebuild topends all the time. The formula is simple, 4.75(stroke) X 2=9.5. 9.5 X say 5500rpm=52250/12=4354ft/min. That's pretty high! In the book, "how to build a torque monster", it's stated that bursts of 5000ft/min, is ok, but is not recommended. Max should be 4500 or so. It goes back to what you have in the motor, and how well balanced it is. Lighter the better, and sturdy. I have pulled the top end apart on mine since I put it together last May. It shows about 20000 miles of wear, and I haven't put that on it, maybe 12000. Strokers definitely get tired faster!
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Old 05-04-2009, 09:16 PM   #13 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RattFXR View Post
1M$man, I have pretty much the same setup, but an Evo style. 4 3/4 by 3 13/16. Delkron cases, Axtell jugs, JE pistons, S&S heads ported by CycleRama, and an EV81 cam. The bike pulls like train, and when you do get up in the RPMs it pulls even harder and sounds AWOSOME! I don't know about the shovel style jugs, but mine are a little taller then stock so you can have a slightly longer skirt.

under 6000, to keep the piston speed at max beat. With good rods, and pistons, you can run the motor to higher speeds, you just can't sustain them for any amount of time, unless you want to rebuild topends all the time. The formula is simple, 4.75(stroke) X 2=9.5. 9.5 X say 5500rpm=52250/12=4354ft/min. That's pretty high! In the book, "how to build a torque monster", it's stated that bursts of 5000ft/min, is ok, but is not recommended. Max should be 4500 or so. It goes back to what you have in the motor, and how well balanced it is. Lighter the better, and sturdy. I have pulled the top end apart on mine since I put it together last May. It shows about 20000 miles of wear, and I haven't put that on it, maybe 12000. Strokers definitely get tired faster!
That's what i am saying. Add 7k in that formula for a redline. Scary, huh. Now add 7K and do the math for 4.25 AND 4.5 ich stroke. Every .25inch is how much more piston speed at 7k rpm? I dont have a calculator handy. But i bet the math is telling.

I am prepared to live with the consequences of premature wear on my Shovel stroker. For now. Down the road I may dump a really huge displacement engine in the Atlas Big Foot frame. That frame is a beast.

I will definitely mate a 6 speed up with the stroker 109 Shovel. Most likely the ultima. The Baker is just way way too much more money.
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Old 05-05-2009, 08:23 AM   #14 (permalink)
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Below is the piston speed at 7000 RPM Stroke~ft/min

4.75 5541
4.625 5395
4.5 5250
4.25(stock evo) 4958
4.375(stock 96) 5104
4(stock 88) 4666

Now, as for drag bikes running the same setup I have 4 3/4 by 3 13/16, they generally shift at 7-7200 RPMs. These bikes get more maintenance then mine does, but I don't do it often. This is a very high piston speed for just about anything, but any crate motor purchased from S&S will not build power to that RPM without headwork and bigger cam. A 113 would be fine, look at the 96 evo. It has a longer stroke then the 113 and they last a long time. If you have to do a topend job every 3 years, what's the big deal? You have to pay for speed! Especially in built motors.
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Old 05-05-2009, 12:18 PM   #15 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by econnor View Post
I have a 96" evo in my softail. I static balanced it and had Balance Masters machine the right flywheel for their active balancing mercury ring. This engine has 11.5 compression, lightweight carrillo rods and 32/70 final drive. Not as smooth as a twin cam softail but still smooth enough to to 8 hour rides and still howl at the moon all night. 96" evos aren't a bad choice. Eventually I pan to swap the cylinders for a set of Axtell 3 13/16" short stud cylinders like the ones in my FXR.

If you are currently riding an 88" evo, an easy upgrade is to 97" ( 4 1/4" stroke x 3 13/16" bore). I know several brothers that run this combo, seems to make very good horse power and with the stock evo stroke, the top end should last.
Would easy upgrade, require boring of cases?.
Thanks.
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