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Old 01-11-2003, 08:13 AM   #1 (permalink)
IronButt
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: cold north
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Misguided wants to know Dino or Syn?
How to get a Curio and Relic FFL

This is one of the best kept secrets out there...........

First and foremost It's a very easy thing to do. Anyone who likes old milsurp weapons will want to get a license because you can cut out the dealer and get them direct to your door. Many people worry that a C&R license will set them up for breaking the law such as what happens to dealers alot. Well, there's only a couple of pages of rules you have to follow regarding collecting as compared to volumes a dealer has to follow. The main thing to remember is that this license is for collecting. Not for selling and making a bunch of money. It's for collecting, just remember that and you'll never get in trouble. It does not give you any other rights as far as the GCA and NFA go except you can obtain C&R firearms through interstate commerce, ie-through the mail. The rule is that you can not be perceived to be in the business of dealing in firearms. You can buy and sell C&R weapons, but it is supposed to be for the enhancement of your collection. Once again- this is the complaint with ATF, be aware of this; so if you feel like your doing something that isn't right regarding sales, you probably are.

People worry about the ATF knocking down their door for a complicance inspection. Not true. The ATF has the right to inspect your books and collection no more than once a year. They must contact you to arrange this and at your discretion you can have the inspection at the nearest ATF office to you. Therefore they can't and won't go through your non C&R collection at your house. They are only concerned with the C&R stuff and your records.

The record keeping requirement is this. You get a bound book (from Brownells for $3.00). You log in any weapons you receive within 36 hours of receipt. You put down the manufacturer/or importer, model, action type, caliber, date received and the name address and/or FFL number of the person/company you got it from. Then over on the right hand side is an area to fill out if and when you ever sell the weapon. If you sell a weapon you don't have to do a background check or fill out a yellow 4473. You can't sell a handgun to a non license from another state, you can sell a rifle to a non licencee from another state as long as its done at your home (place where the collection is actually, I assume its your home). You can sell rifles to a non licensee who resides in your state as well. You need to get a photocopy of their drivers license. There's some special rules regarding sales to aliens (non US citizens, not little green people), which I won't go over. The best rule of thumb is to sell only to another licenced collector. If you decide to quit collecting, you do NOT have to send ATF your records, since you were not a dealer. There is no requirement to retain these records after you quit collecting either. If you quit, you need to send your license back to them and tell them you quit. If you let your license lapse after the three years, then that's that and nothing needs to be done.

OK enough FAQ's. Here's how you go about getting a license:

1) Get the two page form from http://www.atf.treas.gov/forms/pdfs/print2.htm NOTE AS OF 2002 YOU MUST ALSO FILL OUT THE CERTIFICATION OF REQUIREMENTS FORM WHICH CAN BE OBTAINED AT THE SAME LINK ABOVE. You need adobe acrobat to access these forms. You can download a copy of acrobat at www.adobe.com or www.cruffler.com. Cruffler.com has alot of useful info regarding licensing as well, you should check it out.

2) Carefully fill out the form in duplicate. It's very similar to a 4473 you fill out at the gun store. The questions are the same. There is a place on the form for your local chief law enforcements officer's (CLEO) name and address so you'll need to know who he is and where he is. The second set of forms are mailed to the CLEO. Send it with a cover letter saying as per federal regulations here is a copy of my application for a federal firearms license. He has ABSOLUTELY NO SAY in your getting or not getting a license. It is just a requirement that you send a copy of the forms to him. One thing I will add is make sure you send it to the right CLEO! It may not be your local police chief, in my case it was the county Sheriff. When it asks for business name and business this and that just put in 'private collector' or something to that effect. If you are a felon or can't pass the regular NICS check then don't waste your time. However if you always pass the NICS check when you buy a gun, you will be approved for the license. You have to be 21.

3) Send the completed forms along with a check for $30 to the address listed on the forms.

4) Wait 4 to 6 weeks. While you're waiting I would suggest getting your bound book from www.Brownells.com . By the way send Brownells a copy of your license after you get it and they'll give you the codes for dealer pricing in their catalog. The bound book isn't discounted so there's no sense in waiting. You'll pay $3.00 for the book and $6.95 for shipping though, so maybe you'll want to wait for your discount and order other stuff too. I didn't wait because I wanted my book so I could start collecting right away.

5) One day your license will arrive in the mail. DO NO SIGN the original At the same time or shortly after you'll get a bunch of regulations books, the C&R list (book, it's a long list). You'll also get a bunch of 4473's and other stuff meant for dealers. You don't need that stuff, it's for dealers. They send that stuff out to everyone. Keep the 'Youth Handgun Safety notice' because if you ever sell a handgun you're required to give that to the buyer. It's a blue pamplet. You don't need the youth handgun safety sign they send you.

6) Immediately make a ton of copies of the original license. DO NO SIGN the original . You send the signed COPIES to every dealer there is and ask for a current catalog.

7) Start collecting.

If you move you have to fill out the form titled "application for ammended license." This form can be found at the ATF web site under forms. It's a one page form that basically askes for old and new address.

You fill this form out in duplicate. Mail one completed form along with your original license to the ATF, mail the other form to the CLEO in your new area. You don't have to send ATF anymore money. It takes about 3 to 4 weeks to get your new license. If you move before you get your ammended license, you'll have to stop collecting activities until it arrives.

The ATF specifies that you need to send the application for ammended license in 6 weeks before you move, however that's sometime impossible to know. When I moved I didn't know what my PO Box was going to be until after I already moved. Therefore I had to send it in after I moved and I had to quit collecting for about a month while I awaited my new license.


There's a whole list of FAQ's over at

http://www.atf.treas.gov/firearms/index.htm as well as the C&R weapons list.

and more good info at http://www.cruffler.com/whatis.html
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[i][b]When the Harley fired up, It sounded like a pitbull on crack (it was sportin drag pipes). Dozens of guys turned their heads as big grins flashed over their faces. Mentally I could hear them all doing the Tim Allen "oh oh OH". As the rider left he blew a yellow light at full throttle in 2nd gear. The waves of V-twin ear cand
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Old 01-11-2003, 08:29 AM   #2 (permalink)
IronButt
 
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now for some C&R Pics

This is a M48 Yugoslavian Mauser in 8mm, it is like brand new from the factory. I paid $100 for it
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Old 01-11-2003, 08:30 AM   #3 (permalink)
IronButt
 
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A russian M44, also like brand new
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Old 01-11-2003, 08:31 AM   #4 (permalink)
IronButt
 
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Swedish Mausers are what I consider the creme of the crop
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Old 01-11-2003, 08:33 AM   #5 (permalink)
IronButt
 
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A Persian (now Iraq) Mauser
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Old 01-11-2003, 08:34 AM   #6 (permalink)
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Another Swede
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Old 01-11-2003, 08:35 AM   #7 (permalink)
IronButt
 
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Turkish Mausers
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Old 01-11-2003, 08:36 AM   #8 (permalink)
IronButt
 
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another turkish
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Old 01-11-2003, 08:39 AM   #9 (permalink)
IronButt
 
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these pics are just a small sample of what I have bought. Some times you can end up with crap and sometimes you get a diamond. I have been real lucky and ended up with some real nice weapons. I even have some nice Colt 1911's.......................

Last edited by Misguided; 01-11-2003 at 08:48 AM.
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Old 01-11-2003, 08:46 AM   #10 (permalink)
IronButt
 
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where you can buy C&R Weapons

Here is a partial list, some I have done business with other I have not.


AIM
http://www.aimsurplus.com/
Super Company, done much business with them

CDNN Investments
http://www.cdnninvestments.com/
Good Company


Centerfire Systems
www.centerfiresystems.com
Good reputation

Century International Arms
http://www.centuryarms.com
Good company I have used

Civilian Marksmanship Program (CMP)
www.odcmp.com
Like M1 Garands ??

Cole Distributing
http://www.coledistributing.com/


Ellison's Military Firearms
http://www.ellisonsmilitaryrifles.com/
Good rep

EMPIRE ARMS
http://www.empirearms.com
Real good people, done business with him

Florida Ammo Traders
http://www.floridaammotraders.com/
done gunsmithing business with him

Guns-N-Stuff
http://www.gunsnstuff.net/


Interordnance
http://www.interordnance.com/
Kinda a crap shoot, has a 50/50 rep

J&G Sales, Ltd.
http://www.jgsales.com/index.html

J.L.D. Enterprises, Inc.
http://www.jldenter.com/JLD%20Order%20info%20page.htm

KY Imports
http://www.kyimports.com/

Samco Global Arms, Inc.
http://www.samcoglobal.com/
have done business with them

SARCO Inc.
http://www.sarcoinc.com/

SOG International, Inc.
http://www.southernohiogun.com/
anothe 50/50 crap shoot

Wholesale Guns
http://www.gunsnammo.com/
have done business with them
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Old 01-11-2003, 09:15 AM   #11 (permalink)
IronButt
 
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Heres a nice C&R Pistol

Walther PP Pistol, this example was produced by
Manurhin in France under licence after WW2.
www.centerfiresystems.com has em in new condition for $249
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Old 01-11-2003, 09:44 AM   #12 (permalink)
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Habanero Kid wants to know Dino or Syn?
My wife is gonna 'shoot' you !!! I think I want a C&R.
I skimmed your post and it seems almost TOO easy. Are there any plans in the works to change the rules? I assume that the weapons are in a full firing condition? (unless class 3 type of course) they would need to be permanantly non-firing. What book would you reccomend to find values before you buy?
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Old 01-11-2003, 11:41 AM   #13 (permalink)
EvilMonger
 
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Thealien is reading this now saying WTF is this?
I have too many now (if thats possible) And Mass sucks anyway !!!! Great information though, thanks.
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Old 01-11-2003, 06:03 PM   #14 (permalink)
IronButt
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by Habanero Kid

I skimmed your post and it seems almost TOO easy.

it is

Are there any plans in the works to change the rules?

none that I know of

I assume that the weapons are in a full firing condition

yes I shoot all of mine, most older weapons have serial numbers on all the parts, if you buy a weapon with matching numbers its a pretty safe bet that the headspace is fine. If you buy with mismatched serial numbers (especially the bolt) then you may have to checlk the headspace.

What book would you reccomend to find values before you buy?

look at the prices on the websites I listed, they are all fair and reasonable prices
__________________
Why do liberals trust the bad guys to be good and expect the law-abiding to be bad?



[i][b]When the Harley fired up, It sounded like a pitbull on crack (it was sportin drag pipes). Dozens of guys turned their heads as big grins flashed over their faces. Mentally I could hear them all doing the Tim Allen "oh oh OH". As the rider left he blew a yellow light at full throttle in 2nd gear. The waves of V-twin ear cand
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Old 01-18-2003, 09:56 PM   #15 (permalink)
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FLHP wants to know Dino or Syn?
I work for a sheriff's office and have seen these come through a few times. Never looked into them much. What are the limitations (of the license) as far as what type of firearm you buy. I understand the intent of the license, but what are it's real life limits.
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