9x23mm

[MadCity]

I've been reading about this cartridge lately. Some advocate it as the best round for 1911 pistols. Who here has had any experience with this cartridge and can shed some light on it?

[MadCity]

No replies yet. Here's what sparked my interest. Experience? Opinions?

[47HO]

I read the article. I disagree with the author when he touts the 9x23 as superior stopping power than the 45 ACP. But that's just my opinion.

[DBotkin]

I suspect he's comparing the stopping power of the 9mm HP to .45 ball. Not an issue for military use, since I believe anything other than fully jacketed ball ammo is a no-no under one convention or another; it's why the British had to go with a lighter jacketed bullet for the .38 Webley in place of the 200-grain lead RN it was designed for.

Seems there's always an argument being made for various .357/9mm rounds, and after the actual field experience is in people keep going back to larger diameter bullets. It's been going in cycles like that for several decades now.

[Electra Geezer]

9x23 has been in the U.S. for over 15 years and even longer in Europe. At 4mm longer than the standard 9x19 (9MM Luger) it offers only a slight advantage in velocity. It has been a dead cartridge along with the infamous 356 TS&W for the last 10 years. The 9x23 cartridge was popularized by a few I.P.S.C. shooters in an effort to make major caliber with a cartridge that had a higher magazine capacity. After a brief run the cartridge hand loaded to make this major caliber was deemed unsafe by the people who were in power at that time. The cartridge was legal for minor caliber only. 38 SUPER has been the king of I.P.S.C. shooting since the late 80’s and has more potential that any other .355” size bullet on the market. Colt still makes a 1911 pistol in 38 SUPER.

Grow some balls and use 45 ACP. Every single cartridge has been compared to 45 ACP at one time or another for a reason, the cartridge has more confirmed one shot kills than any other cartridge know to man. Most of these so called gun writers of today and years past are nothing more than self proclaimed experts. Few had any real knowledge. I have known and still know many of these fools and have had debates with them. Most of the really ignorant ones has past on to the great bullet debate and can no longer spew there BS in the gun rags. Understand one thing about most gun magazines, they feel that controversy sells magazines. Making money is there main business, not telling the truth. If they actually told the truth they would be out of business for lack of advertising. No one would advertise if the magazines printed controversial articles about their products. I have been in the firearms industry for over 36 years and still work for one of the largest in this country. Obviously I have my own opinion.

[MadCity]

Originally posted by Electra Geezer
Grow some balls and use 45 ACP.

Well, I already shoot .45 ACP so my balls are just fine, but thanks for your concern. I just hadn't heard much about the 9x23mm cartridge so I asked the question.

Originally posted by Electra Geezer
Understand one thing about most gun magazines, they feel that controversy sells magazines. ... No one would advertise if the magazines printed controversial articles about their products.

That would be a direct contradiction.

[Electra Geezer]

Originally Posted by MadCity

That would be a direct contradiction.

You’re missing the meaning of that statement, and I may not have expressed it completely correctly. If a so called writer wrote a bad review that showed a particular product in a poor light, that writer would never see another product from that company ever again, and that company would pull their advertising from that magazine causing a loss of revenue. No publishing company wants to loose income. Plus other manufacturers would be less likely to give that writer a product to write about. What is not generally known to the public is that if a writer writes an article about a product, that product is usually given to that writer to keep, FOR FREE, in exchange for the article. When you see an article in a publication you can bet your azz that product was given to the writer. It is a simple exchange of product for the article. Manufacturers simply will not fork out the money it would take to get that type of exposure. Between the cost of the advertising agency that generate the ad, the photographer, the writer, and then finally the actual cost of the pages in the rag, the cost would be prohibitive. But, if it costs you the manufacturing cost of one product it becomes a bargain for several pages in a rag. On average a full color one page ad in a well distributed magazine would cost several thousand dollars per issue. I have personally approved every article written about the company I work for, for the last 14 years. I always get to correct anything I don’t like or I feel is incorrect before it hit the printer. I am sure every manufacturer has that same opportunity. Just because it sounds wonderful in print does not mean it will be so good once you get it in your hands. Manufacturers do what is called “Press Releases” for products. They are usually free small ads in a magazine that they advertise in. It is usually a kiss on the cheek by the publisher for advertising in their magazine. Writers come knocking on the door begging for products to write about. This may not be true in every industry, but it has been that way for as long as I can remember if the firearsm industry.

[MadCity]

I know what you're saying, and I don't disagree. I just thought you expressed it in rather contradictory terms. I've read many gun rags, and many motorcycle rags, and it's very clear that the reviews pander to the advertisers for obvious reasons, as you stated. So I take all of it with a grain of salt. I think we're on the same page but maybe we just didn't communicate it quite that way.

[chuckfw]

Originally Posted by MadCity

Some advocate it as the best round for 1911 pistols.

1. The best round for the 1911 is and always has been the .45 ACP.

2. The best 1911 style pistol is made by Colt, IMHO.

Yep, there's room for the other manufacturers who copy Colt, but when they start adding a bunch of BS gizmos to the basic design, no thanks. I know that a lot of people just love their Kimbers and Springfields among others, but it's hard to fault a Colt for proven reliability.

[MadCity]

Originally posted by chuckfw
I know that a lot of people just love their Kimbers and Springfields among others, but it's hard to fault a Colt for proven reliability.

I like Colt too. In fact, I own two but they're both revolvers. I'd be happy to have a Colt 1911 in my collection.

[chuckfw]

Originally Posted by MadCity

I like Colt too. In fact, I own two but they're both revolvers. I'd be happy to have a Colt 1911 in my collection.

Is one a 4" .38 Diamondback? I am looking for one.

[MadCity]

Originally posted by chuckfw
Is one a 4" .38 Diamondback?

No. One is a snub-nosed .38 Special (Detective Special II) and the other is a .44 Magnum Anaconda (6-inch barrel).

[chuckfw]

Good choice of guns, both will get the job done!

[eprenzlow]

Seems like the 9x23 and the 38 Super are about the same thing by a different name. There's not a lot of functional difference between .355 (9mm) and .357 (38 Sp, 357 Mag, 38 Super) bullets.

Load data for the 9x23 shows a 125 gr bullet at about 1450 fps. 38 Super gets you to upper 1300's, and some handloaders can make major caliber with the Super, but you might get some issues with pressures to make a 170 power factor. You need to get at least 1375, and that gives you no cushion over the chronograph.

So, it looks like the 9x23 was pretty much seen as a solution to make IPSC major class in an auto with a .355/.357 bullet.